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Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

OP posts:
Truthseeker456 · 03/08/2024 21:00

SnipSnipMrBurgess · 03/08/2024 20:55

@Truthseeker456 If you are real and not trolling, please do go speak to someone, that's not a healthy thought process at all.

What part ?

sussexman · 03/08/2024 21:00

ShouldhavebeencalledAppollo · 03/08/2024 20:48

I think that's unfair.

There's photos of him as a child. There wasn't for Kyle Clifford or Lucy Lethby.

I think its perfectly normal, if you are being shown photos of a child appearing quite happy and innocent then going on to have committed a crime such as this, to ask this question.

The press went with Lucy Letby as a child and Kyle as a happy man.

Well this is just weird…WTH happened to this guy in 6 years
Well this is just weird…WTH happened to this guy in 6 years
Elbone · 03/08/2024 21:01

Scarletrunner · 03/08/2024 20:59

Odd he got to play Dr Who in an advert - how many would be actors get an opportunity like that.

Having opportunities to a successful life doesn’t stop male violence.

amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/24/ryan-grantham-sentencing-second-degree-murder

SummerSnowstorm · 03/08/2024 21:02

If he has aspd (sociopath/psychopath in old terms) then he could easily have hidden the traits in passing interactions and worsened with age.
Paranoid schizophrenia is a possibility but seems unlikely due to the specific targeted group.
The most likely option in my opinion is an incel style copycat targeting younger victims as its easier than his own age. It would match with choosing the Taylor swift workshop for a certain demographic of what he may have viewed as "popular" girls too.

inamarina · 03/08/2024 21:02

Reedroo · 03/08/2024 19:31

’Excuse’ of mental illness? Do you actually know anything about serious mental illness? I hope you’ve inadvertently used such a flippant term.

Also, what’s your evidence to support what you’re claiming about victims of violence perpetrated by mentally ill people?

Also, what’s your evidence to support what you’re claiming about victims of violence perpetrated by mentally ill people?

I was wondering about that too.
I’ve seen that claim being made several times during the last week, that when mentally ill people (specially men) attack or murder someone, it’s people who are weaker than them.
I wonder if that’s supported by evidence though? Men do attack and kill men too.

paperrockscissors · 03/08/2024 21:03

CwmYoy · 03/08/2024 19:22

According to one newspaper he was recently diagnosed as autistic and had been isolating himself for some time.

My niece and nephew are both autistic. Neither of them are child killers.

Lalgarh · 03/08/2024 21:07

ballyball · 03/08/2024 19:28

I always wonder why when people murder under the excuse of mental illness it's always easy targets, children, women and lone people.

They never seem to think let's go target the local rugby club full of lots of big, strong men.

The dance and yoga place he entered was just over the way from a gym full of bodybuilders.

Guess which one he chose

SummerSnowstorm · 03/08/2024 21:09

CwmYoy · 03/08/2024 19:22

According to one newspaper he was recently diagnosed as autistic and had been isolating himself for some time.

Autism is not associated with a higher rate of violent crime than the general population.
ADHD is linked to slightly higher frequency of violent crimes, but not autism.

Lalgarh · 03/08/2024 21:10

Imsodamaged · 03/08/2024 20:09

His autism diagnosis is irrelevant it will be no more than a comorbidity

That surely depends on what his defence team decides.

ShouldhavebeencalledAppollo · 03/08/2024 21:10

sussexman · 03/08/2024 21:00

The press went with Lucy Letby as a child and Kyle as a happy man.

After her conviction? And what’s the detail of the article? Talking about her background?

we arent there yet with this case.

and yes, Kyle Clifford…..as a grown man. No one was talking about whether he was smiling or not.

I said it’s very common if you only see photos of someone as a happy, innocent looking child it’s normal to wonder what happened and and not necessarily because he has a ‘funny name’ or is black.

Your argument of Lucy Lethby photos of her as a child after conviction after her adult photo being all over, is irrelevant to that point. Photos of Kyle Clifford as a grown man, is also irrelevant to that point.

CranfordScones · 03/08/2024 21:12

In the absence of any evidence, it seems wholly pointless to speculate. Why can't people be satisfied with: we don't know at this stage??

Gettingbysomehow · 03/08/2024 21:12

I saw a more up to date photo of him on tik tok and that little boy has long gone. He looked scarily wild.
IF and we don't know anything about it he is mentally ill, this is the kind of thing paranoid schizophrenics often do. They hear frightening voices and often target someone who they think is possessed by the devil or whatever.
But there is no point speculating because we have no idea.
When I worked on psychiatric the unmedicated PS's scared me more than anyone else.

samanthablues · 03/08/2024 21:15

SummerSnowstorm · 03/08/2024 21:09

Autism is not associated with a higher rate of violent crime than the general population.
ADHD is linked to slightly higher frequency of violent crimes, but not autism.

I agree (ADHD sufferer here), it makes you more "impulsive", maybe throw a punch in a "heated moment" as we're not very good at dealing with negative emotions (I've never thrown one myself but I've seen it with ADHD sufferers), it definitely doesn't make you go to a kindergarten and murder a few random strangers, that for sure.

Allthislovelygreen · 03/08/2024 21:15

Is it not really appalling that people are correlating autism with multi-murdering of little girls? It's not a symptom of the diagnosis.

The speculation on here is horrific

SummerSnowstorm · 03/08/2024 21:16

CranfordScones · 03/08/2024 21:12

In the absence of any evidence, it seems wholly pointless to speculate. Why can't people be satisfied with: we don't know at this stage??

Curiosity and attempting to understand other humans thoughts and actions is a natural part of what makes humans so sociable.
It's actually quite unusual for someone not to have any interest in other people's actions and thoughts, especially in situations where the behaviour or thoughts are very abnormal. Its part of why soaps depicting dramatic interactions and people's behaviour during those, reality shows and true crime documentaries get so much interest.

merrymelodies · 03/08/2024 21:17

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

You really don't know much about psychotic behaviour, do you.

samanthablues · 03/08/2024 21:19

merrymelodies · 03/08/2024 21:17

You really don't know much about psychotic behaviour, do you.

Exactly, because people with psychotic behaviour would never get a taxi 🙄

Lalgarh · 03/08/2024 21:20

BehindTheSequinsandStilettos · 03/08/2024 20:49

Me too.
I felt the same as I did about the Jonty Bravery case.
He was sectioned at 16, told his carers he wanted to throw someone off a tall building at 17 then did just that. In Belmarsh, he's allegedly raped an inmate.
His carers were told not to say no to things for fear of triggering a meltdown, he was considered manipulative (he wanted his ipad back and wanted to contact his parents. Also dubious attitude towards women). Allegedly he thought being in jail would be better than being in care and allegedly wanted to be on the tv.
He was considered to have another mental health condition and possibly psychopathy

We know nothing about this ongoing case apart from reports of an autistic condition, not being seen much out, if at all, and not communicating with his parents of late.
If known to police and social services and excluded for knife-carrying, there are questions to be raised as there were with JB, as to how to prevent.

My own child, who hates leaving the house unless necessary, who hates having his photo taken, who has been aggressive when dysregulated, who plays online...was at pains to list me all the autistic people who are successful from Anne Hegerty to Elon Musk. The reports of this recent perpetrator made him feel bad (he is sensitive and can be very empathetic, very bright and reads me the news each day). We concluded there must be a comorbidity or undiagnosed health condition in addition. I was at pains to point out autism was not the root cause.

However - CAMHS won't help when autism is suspected/diagnosed - and in addition, there is very little support for carers out there. If a child slips through the cracks and ends up excluded and isolated with the internet for company then radicalisation is a possibility. It's my biggest fear - what my children are exposed to online - which is why I'm talking to them both 24/7 about what they read and who they talk to and what they play.

His carers were told not to say no to things for fear of triggering a meltdown,

This does seem to be thought of as best practice.

Is it?

Buddysbunda · 03/08/2024 21:20

paperrockscissors · 03/08/2024 21:03

My niece and nephew are both autistic. Neither of them are child killers.

My son is autistic and he isn't either. It does nobody any favours though if we ignore the fact that neurodiverse people are disproportionately represented in prison populations. Imo that doesn't show that neurodiverse people are evil or uncaring, it shows that there is a failure in society to meet their needs. Failures in the education system to support them through, failures in the mental health system that won't treat autistic people who also have mental health issues, failures at supporting them into employment and on the list goes. Supporting people into a better quality of life reduces criminality. Talking about this shouldn't be about demonising neurodiverse people but helping them.

This article here talks about neurodiverse people within the prison system and estimates that up to half of the UKs prison population is

Greater support for neurodivergent offenders in bid to cut crime

Staff dedicated to helping neurodivergent offenders are now in place in all public prisons in England and Wales.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/greater-support-for-neurodivergent-offenders-in-bid-to-cut-crime#:~:text=The%20Joint%20Inspectorate%20Evidence%20Review,adult%20prison%20population%20is%20neurodivergent.

PommelHoss · 03/08/2024 21:20

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

merrymelodies · 03/08/2024 21:23

@PommelHoss Psychosis is a possible explanation, not necessarily the correct one.

NewGreenDuck · 03/08/2024 21:24

. My son was told that all of his issues were down to autism. No one wanted to know, it was only after he tried to kill himself that anyone thought he had a mental health issue. And then we had to wait for the diagnosis. There are professionals who think that having 1 illness means that no other illnesses are present.

samanthablues · 03/08/2024 21:28

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Not by any means, but this was not a crime of passion, money or greed, these girls where random strangers to him and because the whole thing is so bizarre we tend to think it may be a psychotic breakdown. Again, we have no idea what was going inside his little ill head so it's all speculation. I'm sure the kid is being evaluated left and right at this moment ny psychiatrists, checking his GP records, police searching his internet history, school, family history etc... while trying to figure out what was wrong with him.

DodoTired · 03/08/2024 21:35

Pandasandtigers · 03/08/2024 19:51

If it’s mental illness, why specially go out your way (cab ride) to attack female children instead of a passer by, group of men, any random adult? Is the fact it was specific mean he could have mental illness problems but this was still planned? It’s very different to understand mental illness when you have no experience of it or anyone around me so I’m struggling to grasp it. Does anyone have any reasonable explanations?

For example. People with schizophrenia or paranoid schizophrenic can be quite cunning, plan and execute their plan and can target specific group/individual. It all depends on their condition and their specific type of delusion/hallucinations. (not saying that’s what he had specifically)

Josette77 · 03/08/2024 21:36

My first boyfriend was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia during our relationship. He was 17.

A happy load back kid who started sleeping with knives under his pillow. Accused me of stealing from his parents. Then attacked me one night.

He is medicated now and gets the shots for it. For years though his parents looked after him and he was in and out of hospital.

It's not as simple as saying they should get help and take their meds. They are scared they are being poisoned. They are terrified.

I have OCD, cptsd, and disassociation disorder. I am capable of asking for help when needed. My ex boyfriend is not.