What do you think of my trans child?

[ANAMEF0RATHREAD]

Asking in chat to get a slightly balanced view perhaps.

I'm concerned that my dd now says she is a boy, she's 19.

I used to think that they would be okay but with the politics turning the other way I worry for them so much.
Will they still make friends? will they lose out on jobs? Will they get mocked etc

I am gender critical I guess, in that I don't believe people can change sex but I'm pretty okay with people expressing themself how they want to, but this is my child

Please tell me what you think, I've heard what FWR say, 'they think they're so special, blue hair brigade, naval gazers' etc

I use sex based pronouns

The child is female. I use sex based pronouns, so calling her she is correct.

Haven't read all the posts- honestly I would think they are just a bit odd and leave them to it. Would treat with kindness as I would anybody.

But the conversation doesn't make any sense without use of reality based language. Why would it even be discussed that her son wants to be addressed as he/him? Unless her son is actually her daughter, which is the case here.

I think the whole trans thing is so tainted now, firstly because a lot of teens think it's just people with MH problems, attention seekers, etc, who claim to be trans and also that due to all the politics around the issue a lot of people - both teens and adults - simply don't want to get involved.

There have been a small number of very vocal, very antagonistic and very problematic trans individuals who've caused their employers no end of trouble and it wouldn't surprise me if employers actively shy away from hiring trans/non-binary/non-gender-conforming individuals, just because it's likely to be a minefield that they don't want to step into. And that would really worry me. Is your DD going to be massively limiting herself and putting people off hiring her if she is openly trans (albeit not going the surgery route - thank goodness - as that is even more personally worrying).

And there, in your first eight words, you have summarised why all this went wrong and there was not a reasonable discussion about how to balance the rights of women and people who are trans identified. Because one side, your side, decided that anyone who had any disagreement with your views was full of 'hate', and so you never stopped to listen and talk and agree a way forward.

Why do you think it is homophobic and sexist? I am genuinely interested to try to get my head around what trans means in terms of gender theory (is it a challege to heteronormality or does it shore it up).

Apart from women only spaces and sports how does it impact/disadvantage most biological women?

Not being goady - really do want to think carefully about what it all means.

If a female identifies as a gay man, this is homophobic. If a male identifies as a lesbian, this is homophobia.
Homosexuality is same SEX attracted.
Defining homosexuality as same gender attracted is, by definition, homophobic because it does not protect the right to be same sex attracted. This has long been stated.
One of the big issues lesbians have faced for years is being approached by males in various ways trying to get into bed with them. This is regressive.
Stonewall have actually taken on the definition by gender. This is institutionalised homophobia by an organisation that is supposed to protect homosexuals.

Even this on wikipedia has survived the editors for years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of sexual orientations that are non-heterosexual.Recognized types of homophobia include institutionalized homophobia, e.g. religious homophobia and state-sponsored homophobia, and internalized homophobia, experienced by people who have same-sex attractions, regardless of how they identify.

Sexism - because gendered identities are impossible to explain without a reference to gender stereotypes. I found this incredibly mindblowing. My brother went to great lengths to tell me it wasn't about gender stereotypes and then has replicated and mimicked early single sexist female stereotype you can think of. To the point of offensiveness. This was one of the things that made me go 'Huh. Hang on a second. This is bullshit.

Also the emphasis is on women to accomodate men at their expense. For example, transwomen can't use the mens because they are at risk from male violence, but women have to let any man in the womens because to challenge someone is potentially transphobic - thus meaning they become at risk from male violence in a place that any male being present would automatically be a no no. Also see prisons, domestic shelters, hospitals, schools etc etc. This is repeated with sport too.

The same expectations for men are not levelled. It is women who are targetted for speaking out about problems to a far highest degree than men.

Also the Cass Review expressed concern at the number of parents expressing homophobic views and a large number of whistleblowers quit the Tavistock because of concerns that parents were trying to 'trans away the gay' in a similar fashion to regressive Iranian ideas.

Stonewall have actually taken on the definition by gender. This is institutionalised homophobia by an organisation that is supposed to protect homosexuals.

Nancy Kelley, former CEO of Stonewall and a lesbian, called other lesbians who did not want to have relationships/sex with transwomen (ie biological men) “sexual racists.”

If that’s not homophobia, I don’t know what is!

@Alltheyearround the whole movement massively depends on gender / sexuality stereotypes / boxes

Trans = moving from one box to another.
Non binary= I'm not in any of the boxes
My position = remove the damn boxes!

Lesbian females identifying as male suddenly become heterosexual??
Straight females identifying as male suddenly become gay?

It's depressingly regressive

Wow. Surely it is up to people to decide their own preference for a partner?

That's dictatorial, or or possibly even dicktatotorial?

My head hurts!

I did have an instinctive repulsion about some inherent sexism when watching Ru Paul, the comments some of the drag queens on there (I know not all trans fit this picture, of course) made giggling about oo can you see my thrupenny bit? etc I just found really offensive as a woman. Its like god have we not spent years trying to get away from this sort of inane banter about women's bodies?

I found I couldn't stomach it. It felt like a step back.

I think what seems progressive is actually a lot of step backs.

In the 80s, a whole generation of girls and boys were experimenting with their look and identity, there was still a lot of that in the 90s, then slowly counter culture has receded & we now have a conservative ultra feminine look for girls and conservative look for boys.

I think because of the pressure on social media on looks and beauty.

So the reaction against that is funnily enough to reinforce it - saying these boxes are real. If you don't fit in, you're something else entirely!

It's abusive.

Gay men and lesbians have complained that they have been shamed and abused for stating that they are same sex attracted only.

This only sounds worst if you consider is opposite sex attracted individuals who claim to be queer who are doing this or heterosexual 'allies'.

The LGB Alliance was set up by some of the original founders of Stonewall as a direct result of Stonewall failure in this area to protect homosexuals.

Its maddening because of all the mantras about it 'just like being gay' and the prejudices of the past and references made to section 28. To the very people who campaigned for gay rights and to stop section 28. 'Just like being gay' is force teaming - to coerce your behaviour by piggybacking an established movement. Or to put it another way, it's become a Trojan horse of gay rights.

We have lots of 'LGBT allies' saying they are working for the interests of all LGBT people - but it's virtue signalling and talking over a group and not allowing them to represent themselves.

There attempt to shut down the LGB Alliance as 'anti-trans' are shocking. The point is precisely that LGB people have different interests to trans people and the point of conflict is not being addressed by the very groups who claim they are standing up for the rights of LGB people. They are not allowed to do something on their own instead. It's abusive.

I wonder how many people choose non binary over trans m2f or f2m?
Or no box at all? @FusionChefGeoff Be interesting to see stats if there are any.

It worries me more about girls and women wanting to identify as male, what is it about being female that feels wrong, or is it trying to escape one box and its disadvantages in a patriarchy - but as you say - jumping into another box. Out of the frying pan into the fire?

Similarly is being culturally male so awful and so restrictive now that boys/men want to try to opt out by presenting as another gender?

Personally, apart from one or two noxious individuals which I am sure we are all aware of from the media, I don't have much fear of sharing spaces with trans women.

They are statistically way more likely to encounter violence than be dishing it out towards me or anyone else in a woman's toilet. Same for prisons, I think risk assessments could help avoid any known offenders from being housed within a women's prison. TBH I'd be more scared of many of the women prisoners in some prisons. Can get pretty rough and scary I get the impression.

Not sure how I feel about women's refuges and trans women. Not that there are many refuges left for anyone in the current political climate. Cut due to lack of funds. Now there's another thing for me to worry about as a feminist.

Likewise, I'm honestly more worried about insidious porn culture having become the norm and child abuse (by familiar adult men).

Anyway, sorry. I may have led to accidental thread derailment! I find it all quite fascinating and am still learning and working out what I might think around trans issues. My DH works as a mindfulness teacher and we were talking about non-duality over toast this morning. Its hard to get away from binary thinking when its deep in our culture. I somehow hoped that trans and non binary would form a kind of useful challenge to sexism but maybe not!

OP, I hope you and your precious child are doing OK and have support in RL as well as on her?

It's doing the exact opposite tbh. It's reinforcing gender stereotypes.

I think this has been very over played in schools over the last few years. Half my child's class became gay, trans, alternative in some way because of how much it got talked about. I think vulnerable youngsters will have got influenced heavily by this.

This.

meant here not 'her' in last post. Oh dear.

@Alltheyearround as trans "women" are men they pose the same risk to women as any other man.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. The trans women I have met/I know I do see in different light to how I see men in general.

Biologically same as man, in some cases.
Psychologically quite different I'd say. In many cases, brave to do what they do. It is not without risk for them from other men who feel threatened or like to harass others.

Also most men are not a threat to women. Only a minority.

So for trans women I see it as being a minority of a minority.

Do you see them as women though? As in totally the same as women?

Trans "women" have the same offending patterns as men. They are not different or special. There is evidence that they are more likely to commit sexual crimes.

What is your perspective on Lia Thomas!

No, I have to say I see them as something in between.
They grew up as boys, had puberty as boys, so that has to make a difference in their gender identity and gendered experience of the world. Whether that's a popular opinion or not, I think it's just something that's true. Likewise, they will have a different experience of the world living as a trans woman in the world which is different to how I experience the world.

The question is how significant are these differences? As significant as growing up as say, Kate Middleton with significant levels of wealth, connections, good education etc or growing up as me (working class, single parent, local comprehensive)? Or growing up Asian vs growing up White. Maybe that's comparing apples and pears though.

I do think it has significance, though obviously its complicated where a child has always felt they were born as the wrong sex and knew this from a really early age. Especially for boys, there is still a lot of resistance to exhibiting behaviours/preferences which our culture usually associates with girls.

This was an interesting film (not on BBC but perhaps can be found elsewhere?)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000xh73#:~:text=A%20moving%20and%20sensitive%20Storyville,was%20assigned%20male%20at%20birth.