Starmer + Sunak debate thread

[MidnightPatrol]

Anyone interested in discussing the debate this evening? On ITV now.

I agree. He also doesn't answer questions very well.

Can you define the working class? Who are the working class in Britain now, what do they look like? Are they down the pits? I just want rational information that outlines what a party is going to do not abstract discussions on the ‘working class’.

I don’t follow your reasoning so Starmer should be defining what is working class, does that mean Sunak defines what middle class is or upper class even? In fact what is Sunak going to do for the Establishment he wasn’t clear on that last night and being from the Establishment, I really want to know!

If the choice of the next prime minister is going to be judged solely on their performance on a TV debate then you might as well bring back Boris. Or maybe bring in Trump for the lols and ratings...

Why did Sunak not explain or define a member of the establishment, after all they are the Conservative party and have always represented them in the past? I don’t think that was clear from the TV debate and I would say it is pretty vital for my vote!

The Tories have had 14 years to sort immigration. They were arguing about the same topic for a previous decade. So the idea that Rwanda is their best policy is completely laughable as all it is is smoke and mirrors and may never happen anyway. To burn our membership of the the court of human rights is even more absurd. We've heard it all before the idea that we can self manage. For example with the environment when leaving the EU, and it's all gone completely south. Net zero was Tory policy. So not sure why they are bragging now with their momentary about turn. No one will force people to rip out boilers for heat pumps or steal your car and force you to buy electric. If the UK government were serious about the environment and transport/air pollution they could regulate and legalise electric scooters that would pretty much suit most able bodied people if the majority of car trips are under a few miles anyway. And delivery networks could be electrified and made better with last mile electric bike. It doesn't take a genius. The housing/energy crisis could be sorted with some bold policy moves. Compulsory purchase/repurposing of old stock with 3D printed housing with passivhaus house standards. A few good academic minds could lead the push here combined with modern computer power. All we are offered is status quo if you are lucky. There's big potential business opportunity here for the UK to be world leading. However energy companies have a vested interest and fuel tax totes props up the treasury. If there is a move to electric it would be great to have this safe guarded in a state energy outfit. One fears however that the state will foot the bill for the infrastructure while private companies skim profits, just like the rail network and so on. The UK gov and people's lack of imagination is just woeful. Meanwhile we have a climate emergency. Social/climate policy/help doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

I'm not surprised Sunak wanted to focus on the future - the past is a train wreck. Starmer was wooden and unconvincing - he should stop telling the story of his dad the tool maker - we've heard it countless times.
The problem is the Tories couldn't arrange a piss-up - they'd disagree on everything, labour are scared shitless of new ideas, they are so busy trying to be the old Tories. The country is restless for change but they are skint and no one wants to pay any more tax - the basket of free ideas was used up a long time ago.
We need a visionary - Boris had vision but was just a bullshitter - he was good at it for eventually we all find out he was all talk.

YouGov poll said Sunak beat Starmer 51-49.

This poll shows Starmer winning. Hard to say how it will have affected public perception, but both polls suggest Starmer perceived as more trustworthy overall...the £2000 tax attack will have freaked people out, but the chief Treasury civil servant has issued a letter this morning saying that Sunak was wrong to claim that the Tories got their figures from them. That's embarrassing for Sunak and will make the next debate more challenging for him.

The letter

It doesn’t matter if the tax increases are a £1000 or £10,000 each we all know they are coming under Labour, it’s semantics to say otherwise.

I don’t trust the lefties in the civil service - our so called impartial public servants what a joke that is! The chief Sue Gray leading party gate investigation ‘impartially’ left and immediately joined the Labour Party!!!! What’s been done about that - nothing.

What’s been done about what? A civil servant who is also a member of the public and has a private life and within that private life a right to a political preference. Civil Servants maintain impartiality by being professional- ever heard of the word, maybe not if your blue rosette adorns your jacket lapel!

Tax increase as long as they are fair and used to make our lives better is a good thing

Fair is the key - fair taxation not necessarily low taxation is what we should strive for

Low overall taxation just means more poverty , more of your income going towards private businesses like health insurance ( where a US model is the one we are drifting towards - costs you a lot more than the NHS) , private security , more holes in the roads , less bins being emptied, worse schools ...

Good grief sue grey seems like a bad example to choose.
Firstly because civil servants also often cross over to work for the Tory party so it doesn't wash its face as a criticism

But secondly because her investigation was only needed because while people everywhere were missing funerals, missing parties, missing family and friends, the Tories in downing street were ordering in champagne and dancing to Abba

This is in line with how I felt the debate went (and I am generally a floating voter, I am appalled by the current brand of Tory, not by conservatism as a form of politics)

There is nothing about your endless obsession with posting and Labour and bashing the conservatives that suggests you are a ‘floating’ voter!!! 🤔

Sue Gray took an oath to confirm she was impartial and even against the rules she left and joined Labour, the party gate investigation isn’t worth the paper it’s written on as a result.

What a disgrace.
Clearly a stitch up job manipulated by Labour.

Those things are the same things, obviously.
I'd like to know why no one is asking about deals done with India that we don't need and possibly benefit the PM or his in laws and the amount of public money that has made a couple of Tees businessmen (and their families) very rich for doing nothing and risking nothing personally.
Also all the industries shafted by being non UK owned and meaning that almost all infrastructure could be used against us in a war. See water, food, transport, everything pretty much.
Isn't that what 'taking back are country' SHOULD have been about?

The public appointments watchdog gave the green light for the job with Labour.

Impartial doesn't mean 'never has another job ever', it means they do their duty whoever is in power whilst employed in the civil service.

Glad Sunak is being called out. What a revolting specimen he is.

Did you ever consider that France may not be a safe country for everyone. Maybe look into their history a before commenting. The reasons have been given ad nauseum for anyone who wants to listen.

This thread demonstrates how little people actually understand politics or bother to keep themselves informed of what those in charge do to us. It's very frightening that this is a snapshot of those who get to vote.
Although calling it democracy under a FPTP system is laughable.

Anyone who has watched PMQ's between starmer and sunak knows that sunak has nothing except finger pointing and thanking his own who might bring up things that have happened in their own constituencies and possibly show the tories in a slightly favourable light.

Personally I'd vote for corbyn's labour policies which were fully costed but am now unhappy to vote for the crap that was 'new labour' and the party that witchhunted a leader that had so much public backing and attracted so many new members to the party.

I have had to leave the green party and am gutted that Caroline Lucas has left parliament. She was often a lone voice of reason in debates there.

So the state pension is already taxable and two thirds of recipients pay tax on it according to Martin Lewis.
yet more Tory duplicity

No what martin lewis is saying is if you only receive state pension you won't be taxed because you don't go above the threshold. Noone does, what pushes them over is then their private pension so it's the private pension amount that gets taxed for example

State pension is £11.5k under the threshold
Lets say private was say £10k
threshold for no tax is £12.5k
therefore £11.5k from state and £0.5k from private is non taxable)
Leaving £9k from private pension that you do pay tax on which will be 20% = £1800

If state pension goes above threshold.of 12.5k then yes you will start paying tax on it

Don't forget the tax relief when you are putting in. My Mum is aghast at the thought of paying any tax.

And let's not forget it still on the government site that:

You pay National Insurance contributions to qualify for certain benefits and the State Pension.

So your wages are taxed already to recover this state pension, if is.gpes over the threshold it's effectively a double tax!