Behaviour going to shit in schools

[noblegiraffe]

Government data shows that on average schools are losing about a quarter of lesson time to poor behaviour.

"In May 2023, 76 per cent of teachers reported that misbehaviour “stopped or interrupted teaching” in at least some lessons in the past week, up from 64 per cent in June 2022."

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-lose-a-quarter-of-lesson-time-to-poor-behaviour-dfe-survey/

There needs to be discussion about what is going on. As well as poor behaviour in classrooms increasing, school attendance is a massive problem, and internal truancy where kids are in school but not attending lessons is also an increasing issue.

Covid is pointed to as 'breaking the social contract between schools and families' as a reason for increasing absence. One reason for increasing absence is an increase in term-time holidays. I'm not so sure that this is a result of covid and social contracts so much as the cost of living crisis and the extortionate price of holidays out of term time. Increased sickness absence is also an issue. One wonders why the government hasn't clocked the connection between a recent pandemic and increased sickness absence. Their response is to tell parents to send children in when ill. I'm sure that will help.

But why are kids increasingly not behaving when in school?

Social media, lack of parental interest in education etc etc. No doubt they all contribute. But my theory is:

Schools are an increasingly shit experience for kids.

People keep talking about the curriculum being boring and an overloaded and dry curriculum is obviously an issue, but we've had the same curriculum for nearly a decade now. What has been getting worse, particularly in recent years?

Teacher recruitment and retention.
One thing that is massively important in schools for kids is consistency. Consistent teachers that they can build relationships with and rely on are a hugely underrated part of the school experience.

They are not getting that. Recruitment is a massive issue, so instead of having permanent teachers a lot of the time, they are getting supply. Maybe they stay for a few months, then it's someone new. If they're lucky, it's someone who knows the subject. If they're unlucky, it's a different person every day who knows nothing. If they're really unlucky (as in the case with some of my sixth form) it's no one.

Kids see cover lessons in secondary as a doss. They don't expect to have to do any work in them. I see kids head to a class with a cover teacher then the whisper to go down the corridor "Yes! We've got supply!" (Don't get me wrong there are some excellent supply teachers out there, working in increasingly challenging circumstances. But we are also in the situation of having to put a warm body, any warm body in front of a class).

It's happening more and more often. Parents are starting to complain about the amount of cover lessons their children are having. But there's nothing the school can do about it.

I've had kids come to my lesson and say 'miss, I've had cover all morning, I can't be expected to behave now'. And they're bouncing off the walls. Lack of routine, lack of consistency, lack of clear expectations and experience and they can't handle it.

And the amount of classrooms without teachers is increasing. Figures for teacher recruitment next year are grim. They were grim last year.

Expect more cover lessons.

I went to a school in the 80s where the children mostly came from some notorious estates. Behaviour was not an issue. All the parents had been to the same school and were utterly terrified of the deputy headteachers still. If parents got a call home it meant huge trouble for you.

Ive worked in schools. Parents will argue back about everything and try and get out of following the rules. There was a 16 year old who’d had a load of piercings done for her birthday and mum argued she had paid for them so they stayed. The Head (who took no shit) told mum that she would exclude child every single day she came in with them, and then permanently exclude her. Mum was arguing back it was her right!
It took a week before she took them out.

I don’t think it helps that so many Heads aren’t willing to stand up, rhe one at DDs primary was so weak willed. If anyone was excluded from a trip because of behaviour, mum would go in and shout at her, they’d then be allowed (and get sent home early from trip). But she was like that for everything. Gives the idea if you complain you get your way.

Gove abolished coursework in schools because it was perceived as ‘easy’

I taught a subject with coursework for 25 years. It wasn’t about cost.

when I was at school we were split into A and B band. B band did some GCSES but also went to a college to do some practical subject work.

Now everyone has to do the full timetable of GCSEs. Some of the classes in DDs school are full of kids who have zero interest in the subject but need it to fill their timetable - like music - and then are just massively disruptive.

@Needmorelego
Definitely need more coursework and more coursework options. I did o levels and we had coursework then in some subjects.
I hear what you are saying.
My dd's class they don't go over stuff enough.
You do it once in year 10 then it's done.

Some kids do understand more if it's repeated and they are older with more life experience and more motivated.

Also teaches you to persevere. To understand.

IGCSES Still have coursework. And lots of private schools do IGCSES.

Modular does make sense.

I was listening to a brilliant podcast about this the other day - this one. https://www.thesendcast.com/leading-on-behaviour-in-schools-and-colleges/

She made some really great points about the fact that there's no such thing as a one size fits all answer to behaviour problems - you really have to look at what is going on in an individual school, and there seems to be this strange split in the education world (especially social media, same story with everything, isn't it?) where you're either "Rigid rules, strict enforcement, consequences, high expectations, zero tolerance" or "Relationship, communication, understanding, trust and nice little chats" but in reality, you need aspects of BOTH, you need some kind of clear structure and policy and consequences, but you ALSO need pupils to be engaged with learning and ready to engage with the teachers, which means relationship which goes both ways, and you need to be willing to look further than the surface behaviour, particularly in persistent cases. She gave a great example of whole-school interventions e.g. an assembly talking about behaviour, and how this is actually received - the conscientious pupils will start to worry about their behaviour even though they are currently doing fine, and the ones who it's actually aimed at will ignore it, because you actually need to go to them directly and figure out the root cause. I guess the issue with doing this is time? But how much time is currently being taken with behavioural issues?

I actually think blaming the parents for not backing up the schools is a huge red herring - this probably is increased since previous decades/generations simply because there has been a shift away from a mindset of age-based hierarchy, but I would guess that how much parents are inclined to back up teachers is hugely influenced by maybe the parents' own experiences of school and the version of the story they are getting from their child. The idea that "if a child gets into trouble at school, they should be in trouble at home too" is outdated, so we should stop relying on it as a behavioural policy. Consequences which require no parental involvement, and communication as an approach. If a parent isn't helpful in communication, then deal directly with the child.

The structural problems outlined in the OP too about reduced teacher numbers and lots of supply teaching have to be factoring in here too because if relationship is an important factor, how can you build a relationship when there is a constant revolving door of supply teachers? (Actually, one of my favourite ever teachers was a supply teacher, but we had her for most of a year and then it was nice when she came back to teach us in future years).

And the school buildings fiasco over the last few years has been dragging on too.

@Flyhigher but surely some of what's on the final exams will have been taught in year 10 - so they do need to go over it again (ie revise) - which is what puts a lot of teens off.
@ArseInTheCoOpWindow I loved my subjects with coursework. They were like mini little projects and I worked really hard at them. Especially some of the maths ones where they had to be presented neatly with graphics etc (all hand written in my day).

I think course work is a skill that’s useful for actual working life/university. It’s ridiculous it’s been dropped.

DD does a igcse but obviously all the work has to completed in school.

My kids have been saying this for years - post covid it was worse.

Lack of experienced teachers - many having left - lots of temporary staff often with unclear work - weak SLT on behavior - teachers teaching outside their subject area- and huge class sizes - DD2 has language class of 40 and in another teacher admitted in p/t meeting that it was so crowded they kids have to sit on floors and tables - and that still better than Ds in English Y11 were were felt lucky he was in class of 60 as at least he had a teacher for last half of the year - all of this plays into it.

SLT would say we were unsupportive parents though - DS last year fell foul of someone high up and we were question lack of teachers in two subjects in y11 - endless accusation kept coming his way and though chance we caught their lies and could prove them- pointed them out and had them agree but suddenly we are problem parents.

I've never been rude to teachers always listen to what they said and have no illusion about my kids behavior but his actual teachers and head of year were bemused as they kept saying he's polite hard working and a positive influence on others. He did well in exams and has not zero issues at college.

Odd thing was I was on exam threads and wasn't only one finding SLT causing problems - not even only one finding odd accusations being thrown at child - though most other were illness and SEN related. I know there are difficult parents who don't support education - but I am now bit more cynical about blame the parents narrative.

What SLT has done is due to vandalism made toilet access impossible though on paper they can and due to mess made it extremely hard for kids to actually eat their food - gone back and forth on minor uniform issues then inconsistently applied the rules - and not dealt with huge noise issues - so my likely ND child who used to cope really well in school is now really struggling. DN at different school - England we are Wales - with better reputation also had these problems and like DS is doing much better at college.

I loved teaching it too! Kids loved it as well.

Schools are too big. Buildings too small and poorly updated.
Not enough experienced teachers.
Lots of subs.
Especially lower years.

Ready to be shot down for this, but it's true. In the UK the social safety net enables low economic achievers (few qualifications, pissed about at school, easy prey for county drug lines). to have families - council housing, etc (I am not saying it's easy to get this by any means). Young professionals (me for example - masters degree, full time job, single) can't afford time off nor kids, so we are not producing children who presumably would be well-read, have respect for authority, have the same love for learning their parents had, etc. So what happens when people who tend to have low respect for authority have kids? Those kids naturally pick up on and hence have the same low respect. Those kids take their poor behaviour into school. Teacher challenges this - kids push back. Teacher challenges parents - the same parents who hated school and have contempt for teachers. Nothing changes because the parents won't parent and the teacher is at the mercy of a bunch of badly-behaved kids who hold the majority to ransom. They're never backed up by anyone.

That's just utter nonsense. Sounds quite right wing.
I live in a home owning area. And the lack of teachers is the biggest issue. And poor management.
There is rebellion from most kids from 12 to 15.
And it's hard to deal with.
Behaviour in mostly home owning schools has also deteriorated. Due to ooor buildings lack of staff. Etc.

Honestly, carry on doing it. This is what kids need. When my ds2 was in Year 6 the school didn't even let the kids out of the playground at hometime unless they were physically met by a caregiver. This was in a perfectly safe area. I told ds to ignore it. Imagine, 11 year olds being treated like infants.

Both mine have asd/add, but I just brought them up to be normal, functional people with the same behavioural and functional expectations. Yes, they struggle in some areas, but they work around it (young adults now). We did loads of input as parents and expected nothing from anyone. I'd be ashamed and embarrassed if my kids were as useless/badly behaved/violent as some described on here. Barring severe LD there's no excuse. Parenting is bloody hard work and most aren't up to the job it seems.

It's very hard to parent now with social media having such a hold on teens minds.

She's out the other end of all this now at 16. But 12 to 15 is extremely hard.

Several of the parents of dds private school
friends won’t allow their daughters on buses. They are 15 we are in a safe small city. Blows my mind.

The amount of violence and poor behaviour in schools these days is just appalling. I taught for 10 years (2007-2017) and looking back I can see the deterioration in children's attitudes and behaviour over that decade, and it's even worse now.

My dd is 10, in Year 6 at a middle school. She has been repeatedly assaulted by a boy in her class, and each time the school have done nothing to punish the boy until we put pressure on them to do so. There is constant violence amongst children- her best friend was slapped across the face so hard yesterday that the boy left his handprint on her face. Last week a girl in their class strangled a boy in front of the teacher. A Year 5 girl brought a small knife into school and threatened to stab her friend with it after an argument. A group of Year 7 and 8s chased two younger girls around the school after a mix up and the teachers had to hide the girls in a classroom to keep them safe. At the moment these events are occurring daily. I'm at the end of my tether.

@RockStarship it's not just in schools - people just seem so angry (which leads to violence) everywhere.
Why?
Where has society gone wrong?

Whereas in my school, we do all of those things.

We don't make ocarina though

Several of our friends are teachers and now they're empty nesters they've either moved overseas, or into the private sector, to carry on teaching. They are enjoying their job so much more because they are actually teaching, and are treated with respect by pupils and parents.

I’m not sure a private school is any better. The parents own you lock stock and barrel and expect unrealistically high levels of commitment.

@frozendaisy Your post applies to a particular cohort of learners who are so lucky to have the cognitive prerequisites for accessing the curriculum at age related standard, as well as having a parent like you, with the capacity to facilitate learning and navigating the world of school.
Many, many children don't.
As teachers, we work with what we've got: immensely pleased for learners whose baseline circumstances were always going to see them through their school years, while committed to trying to meet the needs of children and young people who are less fortunate. My own DC1 is struggling a great deal in secondary school, having just about held it together in primary; like you, I parent the hell out of my child all hours of the day, but like many parents like me, whose children's SEN is moderate enough to necessitate a mainstream placement, I am clear about the limitations of the system.

@MrsHamlet Unfortunately her school is taken over by an academy just in her final year.
It will be great for those coming behind her.

All the practical stuff is fun and sports.

Too much emphasis on literature which is a waste for many. Or maybe till it's the books they choose.

Lord of the flies is a great book. But a lot of lit isn't

Too much emphasis on literature which is a waste for many. Or maybe till it's the books they choose.

3 of the 4 GCSE papers are based on literature. They have to study 4 texts in detail. We have no choice but to put emphasis on Literature.