Behaviour going to shit in schools

[noblegiraffe]

Government data shows that on average schools are losing about a quarter of lesson time to poor behaviour.

"In May 2023, 76 per cent of teachers reported that misbehaviour “stopped or interrupted teaching” in at least some lessons in the past week, up from 64 per cent in June 2022."

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-lose-a-quarter-of-lesson-time-to-poor-behaviour-dfe-survey/

There needs to be discussion about what is going on. As well as poor behaviour in classrooms increasing, school attendance is a massive problem, and internal truancy where kids are in school but not attending lessons is also an increasing issue.

Covid is pointed to as 'breaking the social contract between schools and families' as a reason for increasing absence. One reason for increasing absence is an increase in term-time holidays. I'm not so sure that this is a result of covid and social contracts so much as the cost of living crisis and the extortionate price of holidays out of term time. Increased sickness absence is also an issue. One wonders why the government hasn't clocked the connection between a recent pandemic and increased sickness absence. Their response is to tell parents to send children in when ill. I'm sure that will help.

But why are kids increasingly not behaving when in school?

Social media, lack of parental interest in education etc etc. No doubt they all contribute. But my theory is:

Schools are an increasingly shit experience for kids.

People keep talking about the curriculum being boring and an overloaded and dry curriculum is obviously an issue, but we've had the same curriculum for nearly a decade now. What has been getting worse, particularly in recent years?

Teacher recruitment and retention.
One thing that is massively important in schools for kids is consistency. Consistent teachers that they can build relationships with and rely on are a hugely underrated part of the school experience.

They are not getting that. Recruitment is a massive issue, so instead of having permanent teachers a lot of the time, they are getting supply. Maybe they stay for a few months, then it's someone new. If they're lucky, it's someone who knows the subject. If they're unlucky, it's a different person every day who knows nothing. If they're really unlucky (as in the case with some of my sixth form) it's no one.

Kids see cover lessons in secondary as a doss. They don't expect to have to do any work in them. I see kids head to a class with a cover teacher then the whisper to go down the corridor "Yes! We've got supply!" (Don't get me wrong there are some excellent supply teachers out there, working in increasingly challenging circumstances. But we are also in the situation of having to put a warm body, any warm body in front of a class).

It's happening more and more often. Parents are starting to complain about the amount of cover lessons their children are having. But there's nothing the school can do about it.

I've had kids come to my lesson and say 'miss, I've had cover all morning, I can't be expected to behave now'. And they're bouncing off the walls. Lack of routine, lack of consistency, lack of clear expectations and experience and they can't handle it.

And the amount of classrooms without teachers is increasing. Figures for teacher recruitment next year are grim. They were grim last year.

Expect more cover lessons.

In the 80s the bluff working class deputy head took the non academic lads out of French and taught them how to be builders. They dug an entire swimming pool and did other building work on school site and were taught how to behave on building sites. They loved it. Wasn’t PC but worked well.

I know there's no choice for teachers.
I love literature. But many kids now are bored with it. It's the same curriculum as we did. And the world has changed. Too many poems too.
20 in the anthology? Why not do just four in depth.
Whole system needs an overhaul.
There used to be foundation English. It remains for maths and science. Why not English.
And also a social science foundation would be good. History and geography.
Or add a coursework element to both.

@mrshamlet. So even the English language has a literature paper?

Yes. One of the papers is literary fiction. That's a requirement handed down from on high. Like the "collection of poems".

I actually have no problem with it being untiered. I don't think we'll see coursework come back.

So do many English teachers think there are too many poems?

I'm sure we just did about three in my day. O loved the ancient mariner. But way too many for every kid in the uk to be forced to do.

Poems are great at a level.

15 poems vs the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner for my mixed ability GCSE classes? I'll take the 15, thanks.

What would you like to see assessed with poems? Maybe just 5?

So you think foundation isn't needed in English?

@Flyhigher 15 poems aren't assessed. We teach 15, and in my experience, the vast majority of students can access the vast majority of poems.

If the collection was smaller, it would have to change note frequently - which would be problematic in terms of resources.

Untiered papers mean any student can access any grade. People fall off the bottom of higher tier, and are capped by foundation.

Literature absolutely shouldn't be a waste of time. If only teachers had the time and freedom to teach it properly instead of box ticking for the exam.

I home educate my kids and literature is the basis of a huge number of other lessons. Well chosen books and led discussion/extension activities cover aspects of history, geography, RE, PSE (especially the older texts), media studies, understanding how we are manipulated by authors which is so incredibly relevant these days. And that's how it was approached by my excellent English teacher in my shitty state school a quarter of a century ago.

But teachers don't have the time or freedom to tailor lessons - they already don't have time for the basic planning. And the only teachers I've met recently didn't themselves seem to know why the knowledge was useful.

Plus if your class has a couple of kids who ought to have been kicked out and half the rest are disengaged because why bother when there's no real future for them anyway and the world will burn in less than thirty years, they won't hear when want to lead a discussion on who is in control in a Shakespeare play and how that relates to their own lives. And there isn't the time because it's not in the exam anyway.

I totally see why so many teachers leave. It must be so hard.

Plus if your class has a couple of kids who ought to have been kicked out and half the rest are disengaged because why bother when there's no real future for them anyway and the world will burn in less than thirty years, they won't hear when want to lead a discussion on who is in control in a Shakespeare play and how that relates to their own lives. And there isn't the time because it's not in the exam anyway.

You've just described my y10. Twice this week I've been complimented on how much they know and understand because the discussion about who is in control in Macbeth, and why, is at the heart of my teaching. Plus props.

I don't waste my time making fancy resources. I've been described as "old fashioned". But most kids like my lessons and they learn plenty and they achieve success.

But do they have to know quotes from 15 poems? As they don't know which ones will come up? Or are they given one of them and then they analyse it?
Secondary is so hard. As a parent you get told nothing. And teens don't want to tell you anything either!

Very cleverly hidden but teacher bashing thread right here!

“But my theory is:

Schools are an increasingly shit experience for kids.”

Disappointing! Being on the ‘shop floor’ so to speak, this is not the case! There are several reasons! One being that increasingly parents don’t hold their kids accountable for poor behaviour which results in a lack of respect for teachers! I worked hard at uni for four years but I’m almost in my 40s and have about 25-30 years left teaching! I see this as my main reason for giving up and doing something else, and I’m not even in Key Stage 1 or above. :(

Sounds amazing! Props. Wow. My dd would have loved that.

My specification requires them to write about one poem they get on the day and another connected one. The mark scheme specifies "reference" to the other poem.

Our school website is full of information about exams, and we invite parents in for an information evening in y10&11 just about exams.

My daughter complains about the lack of a proper teacher for some of her classes and feels like between the supply teachers and poor behaviour of other students she isn't learning anything she needs to pass her GCSE in some subjects.

It has got worse. She is my youngest of four and her eldest sibling will be 26 this year. I feel that his schooling was better than what she has had, especially once you add in the two years or so of covid disruptions.

Children's behaviour has definitely worsened though even from preschool ages. I suspect there is a definite impact from both parents needing to work full time due to COL and an increase in the use of phones and devices and possibly even changes in our food etc. We are seeing more children with ASD and ADHD too. I just don't think society is set up for the way humans need to be biologically now.

I find it really hard to believe that parents at your child’s high school are told nothing. Because the school would be slammed by ofsted for a start. Are you absolutely sure the curriculum plan for every single subject isnt on the school website? Are you sure you dont receive emails with curriculum information? There is no at-least termly school newsletter / weekly bulletin? Theres no social media accounts giving information? There was no IAG meeting for parents all year?

It's not a teacher bashing thread, it's a despairing at the lack of teachers thread. This lack of teachers, which I have been posting about for a long time, is having a real impact in our schools that I can't see being talked about anywhere.

There are fewer expectations of children to behave appropriately at home. Always someone else's fault. Theyve had it hard etc etc. Parents have become incredibly entitled without actually putting any of the work in at home.

The local priest had so many complaints about poor behaviour of children and parents just ignoring it at recent masses (sacramental programme) he emailed the school and the head emailed the parents. The parents have been raging and could not see an issue at all with the children's poor behaviour saying things like how do they expect children to behave?! They cannot be expected to sit and behave for 40 minutes. And thats just the ones who dont bring a library and a chest of toys. My parents expected me and my siblings to behave during mass at all ages in the 80’s.

There is a parenting crisis. And this massively impacts schools.

In England the fact that support staff can 'teach' a class so school require no actual teacher being paid for that subject, is dire. SEN being packed into mainstream schools and not being able to cope so hugely acting out is dire. The cost of living and poverty along with CAMHS being unattainable is a shit show. As is people having housing problems and addiction problems due to no job and stress. Children only go to school approx 15% of the week so what happens during the other 85%?

I wonder how many of those parents never had parents who supported or back them so are making sure their own children know that their parents have their backs.

i also wonder how many remember remember their own experiences at school which is why they have little respect for teachers.

In primary school one teacher slapped me across the face knocking my tooth out, I was about 5/6 yo. My parents response, you must have done something to deserve it! Another terrified the lot of us with his incessant screaming and shouting, banging desks, throwing chalk board erasers. Girls made to do pe in knickers, stood over and forced to eat food you didn’t like.

High school, the knicker thing again, no shower curtains allowed and no excuses not to shower. More teachers screaming, chalk board erasers flying, ear twisting, inappropriate touching and innuendos, blatant favouritism’s, for myself and many of my friends the teachers hated us just because we came from a particular town, detentions for no reason, bullying by teachers, one teacher humiliated me in the first year of high school because I was dyslexic, all through primary I was told I was told I was lazy and stupid, after taking me to get privately tested my parents found I was dyslexic, by highschool I couldn’t even right my name. My form tutor stood me in front of the class and told everyone how at 11 I couldn’t even spell Alice properly and this is an example of how not to be!

I don’t talk to anyone disrespectfully but I also won’t let teachers get away with shit either. I was blatantly lied to be teachers at my DCs primary school and had no problems calling them out on it in front of my children. My children understand they follow the rules and listen to their teachers but their teachers don’t have the right to bully, disrespect them. I’ve taught them at their age they don’t challenge teachers, they come to me first, I will gain as much info as possible before deciding what kind of conversation takes place. I will have no problem with my DCs standing up for themselves when they are older, as long as they do it properly.

Very cleverly hidden but teacher bashing thread right here!

Teacher-bashing thread? Well that certainly would be a change of direction for @noblegiraffe . You must be new here - maybe take a look at some of her other threads... She's essentially a one-woman awareness-raising campaign on MN about the state of the education system and the difficulties teachers (and pupils) face.

Thank you Alice McK..I did try to say something similar a few pages back but it was ignored and you have put it so much more eloquently.
Sorry but just because someone has had the privilege to get a mediocre degree and a teaching cert ..doesn't mean they are suddenly amazing people who can do no wrong and have everyone's best interests at heart.
If parents and grandparents today have a poor attitude to teachers, it's hardly surprising is it?

You talk about schools being a rubbish experience for kids though.

Not being rude here, BUT would you want to work in a job where you are constantly disrespected by children who are decades younger than you, and then there is no accountability for that when addressing it with their parents! Nope! Bullying in any form is not acceptable!

Its also becoming increasingly unsafe, you only have to look at the news this week.

and then…there’s Ofsted!!

Not new here but new to the poster. She obviously is old hat at it by now I guess! Glad I was right despite her protestations! 😂😂