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Behaviour going to shit in schools

278 replies

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 17:53

Government data shows that on average schools are losing about a quarter of lesson time to poor behaviour.

"In May 2023, 76 per cent of teachers reported that misbehaviour “stopped or interrupted teaching” in at least some lessons in the past week, up from 64 per cent in June 2022."

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-lose-a-quarter-of-lesson-time-to-poor-behaviour-dfe-survey/

There needs to be discussion about what is going on. As well as poor behaviour in classrooms increasing, school attendance is a massive problem, and internal truancy where kids are in school but not attending lessons is also an increasing issue.

Covid is pointed to as 'breaking the social contract between schools and families' as a reason for increasing absence. One reason for increasing absence is an increase in term-time holidays. I'm not so sure that this is a result of covid and social contracts so much as the cost of living crisis and the extortionate price of holidays out of term time. Increased sickness absence is also an issue. One wonders why the government hasn't clocked the connection between a recent pandemic and increased sickness absence. Their response is to tell parents to send children in when ill. I'm sure that will help.

But why are kids increasingly not behaving when in school?

Social media, lack of parental interest in education etc etc. No doubt they all contribute. But my theory is:

Schools are an increasingly shit experience for kids.

People keep talking about the curriculum being boring and an overloaded and dry curriculum is obviously an issue, but we've had the same curriculum for nearly a decade now. What has been getting worse, particularly in recent years?

Teacher recruitment and retention.
One thing that is massively important in schools for kids is consistency. Consistent teachers that they can build relationships with and rely on are a hugely underrated part of the school experience.

They are not getting that. Recruitment is a massive issue, so instead of having permanent teachers a lot of the time, they are getting supply. Maybe they stay for a few months, then it's someone new. If they're lucky, it's someone who knows the subject. If they're unlucky, it's a different person every day who knows nothing. If they're really unlucky (as in the case with some of my sixth form) it's no one.

Kids see cover lessons in secondary as a doss. They don't expect to have to do any work in them. I see kids head to a class with a cover teacher then the whisper to go down the corridor "Yes! We've got supply!" (Don't get me wrong there are some excellent supply teachers out there, working in increasingly challenging circumstances. But we are also in the situation of having to put a warm body, any warm body in front of a class).

It's happening more and more often. Parents are starting to complain about the amount of cover lessons their children are having. But there's nothing the school can do about it.

I've had kids come to my lesson and say 'miss, I've had cover all morning, I can't be expected to behave now'. And they're bouncing off the walls. Lack of routine, lack of consistency, lack of clear expectations and experience and they can't handle it.

And the amount of classrooms without teachers is increasing. Figures for teacher recruitment next year are grim. They were grim last year.

Expect more cover lessons.

Behaviour going to shit in schools
OP posts:
PickledMumion · 26/04/2024 07:06

I work in a lovely, semi-rural independent school. We are fully staffed with specialist subject teachers. We have maximum class sizes of 25. We set our own curriculum (although we are still ultimately preparing for GCSE/IGCSEs) .

We're still struggling with behaviour! Don't get me wrong, it's nothing like some other schools, the kids aren't rude or violent or anything, they just constantly talk over each other, talk over the teacher, and it's increasingly difficult trying to get any amount of meaningful work out of them.

And these are kids that I really like, and get on well with! I certainly never dread going to work. For us, the biggest dilemma is how to make accommodations for all those students with ADHD, ASD and other increasingly complex learning needs, whilst maintaining high standards and expectations.

frozendaisy · 26/04/2024 07:10

Blimey some people expect a lot from a school.

We, as parents, know the work world our kids are going into is going to be different and no one can guess what impact AI is going to have on society. How can you expect teachers to predict they are just human same as parents? Read a book, some research articles and guide your own kids. This is not a teaching job.

It's not the school's job to teach your child basic decency, or life skills, or how to budget, or consent, or to monitor their out of school online content.

Do some parenting. You chose to have your little angel. Parent them. It doesn't stop when they walk through the door in reception class.

And regardless of state v private schools, the children that will go on to have more choices and opportunities are the ones being parented at home. Instill that school yes can be boring, but it's what you have to do, much less boring than an endless boring job. Get study aids, use the vast online resources, make them allocate time to homework and further study. Make them behave for teachers, yes some teachers might not be great or a bit harsh but do you think a boss is going to let you get up, have coffee breaks to tiktok and care if you didn't get enough sleep last night? Or is that when some under prepared for the shock of real life teens get depressed and go on sick because their boss was horrible to them.

Yes school can be boring, no school isn't the best time of your life.

But really as a parent, if you are one, do some parenting FFS.

We have two teens in mixed secondary schools. Yes we have to fill in some bits, yes we have to encourage homework and revision, yes we have to keep plugging to keep them motivated and we tell them that sometimes you have to suck it up. Ours are doing ok, room for improvement but steadily getting there and on top of that respect their teachers, don't like all of them, but hey that's life, taking every opportunity for what the school try and offer and understand school is school. It teaches the basics, the rest they need to learn themselves or from us.

Thinking your precious angel deserves some bespoke education with teachers who understand their personal needs and let them express themselves is utterly insane. Home school if that's what you think your precious angel needs.

A government that finances education decency. And some basic parenting at home. A societal respect (and renumeration) for a teaching career. This will bring about real change.

But some parents don't want to do that because they might have to actually do something.

Earwiggoearwiggoearwiggo · 26/04/2024 07:28

PickledMumion · 26/04/2024 07:06

I work in a lovely, semi-rural independent school. We are fully staffed with specialist subject teachers. We have maximum class sizes of 25. We set our own curriculum (although we are still ultimately preparing for GCSE/IGCSEs) .

We're still struggling with behaviour! Don't get me wrong, it's nothing like some other schools, the kids aren't rude or violent or anything, they just constantly talk over each other, talk over the teacher, and it's increasingly difficult trying to get any amount of meaningful work out of them.

And these are kids that I really like, and get on well with! I certainly never dread going to work. For us, the biggest dilemma is how to make accommodations for all those students with ADHD, ASD and other increasingly complex learning needs, whilst maintaining high standards and expectations.

Agree with all this. I also work in an independent school and some of the posts on here assuming behaviour is perfect did make me chuckle.

Don't get me wrong, behaviour is usually good, but there is some disruption to most lessons. I have 25 in most classes, but those kids will often be working at every grade from 4 to 9, with maybe 5 or so with some SEND issue to be aware of. The lessons are 40 mins long. Pupils often miss lessons for music lessons or LAMDA. The number of parents who take their kids out of school for maybe a week at a time for holidays is mind-blowing. Lots of parents aren't that engaged or interested in what their child is doing. And because we're a one to one device school, there's a lot of tedious battling with pupils trying to email each other under the desk etc (you can give a detention but you can't confiscate it for more that a few minutes because it's a school device and they'll need it next lesson)

If we're honest, a lot of school is boring and pointless. Lots of kids struggle through subjects they don't enjoy. 14 year olds are not physically designed to sit at a desk for 7 hours - they're there to be contained while their parents work. And the social contract that says "do this and you'll get XYZ in the future", in a time of pandemic, economic problems, war, political uncertainty, climate collapse, has been broken.

sanityisamyth · 26/04/2024 07:29

There's a reason I gave up secondary science teaching and went into a completely unrelated field. Makes me really worry where to send my DS10 to school too.

TheaBrandt · 26/04/2024 07:31

I agree to some extent. Our neighbours in lock down got terribly exercised about their teen not being properly supported by the school and very angry at the school. Wtf did they expect the school (ie the state) to do? Definitely need more emphasis on personal responsibility

TheaBrandt · 26/04/2024 07:32

We use tutors heavily and do a lot of educational support ourselves. People sadly need to realise we can’t rely on the state those days are gone. As Taylor Swift says - you’re on your own kid you always have been.

shockeditellyou · 26/04/2024 07:40

Most kids are suffering from shit parent syndrome.

That suggestion about making ocarinas and then using them to teach music sounds like absolute bullshit. Can’t make a good ocarina? No music for you. I would also have thought it was a complete bullshit waste of time as a y7.

MooseAndSquirrelLoveFlannel · 26/04/2024 07:51

The answer is parents!! From day dot teaching their kids the correct way to behave and supporting the school/teachers in punishment when they don't.

My son was getting bullied, his school was fantastic dealing with it but even the HoY admitted to us that the boys parents just didn't care. The boy got moved from form group to form group, bullying varying children along the way. Eventually he was expelled for assaulting a child and breaking their nose. I often wonder what his parents reaction to this was..

We also need to be encouraging our young people in to teaching. Stop saying it's shit, start selling the positives as only by getting positive kids into teaching careers will we solved the crisis. I have 3 kids, 2 of which wants to be secondary teachers. One wants to teach history and one wants to teach science (I fear the third may rule the world and hold it to ransom 😄). More incentives to get into teaching, and stay in teaching.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 08:18

TheaBrandt · 26/04/2024 07:31

I agree to some extent. Our neighbours in lock down got terribly exercised about their teen not being properly supported by the school and very angry at the school. Wtf did they expect the school (ie the state) to do? Definitely need more emphasis on personal responsibility

Don't know how much support your school gave in lockdown.
But ours was shocking. No marked work at all in lockdown. I was and am really angry.
Didn't mark it after either. None of it.
My daughter lost respect for them then.

Soggywelly · 26/04/2024 08:18

You spend too long at school, I was done with it around 13/14. Totally bored of it by that point. In nature we would be put to better use in things that would have meaning, but in the modern world we are forced to be basically useless for years.

valensiwalensi · 26/04/2024 08:19

My local primary is shocking. When Ofsted did an inspection, a 10 year old girl gyrated up the inspector and then screamed he was a batty boy. They witnessed several physical instances of bullying.

the teachers don’t walk home anymore because they are genuinely afraid of being followed and repercussions from the children.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 08:22

Do agree a lot of the curriculum is boring.
They did hardly any practical subjects.
Not much cooking. I think my daughter did none.
Not any sewing or woodworl or metal work.
Not much sport either. No house competitions.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 08:24

Soggywelly · 26/04/2024 08:18

You spend too long at school, I was done with it around 13/14. Totally bored of it by that point. In nature we would be put to better use in things that would have meaning, but in the modern world we are forced to be basically useless for years.

If it's a good school you do lots of amazing stuff.
Biology for one. Art.

stickygotstuck · 26/04/2024 08:25

Regarding the jump of SEN in mainstream and PPs asking how they managed before -

  • As already mentioned, lots of kids with high needs are in mainstream when they should be in (non existent) specialist schools

-The lower needs (more academic) SEN kids, are experiencing school as an increasingly hostile environment. They dread going in, the bad behaviour around them makes it ever harder for them to simply cope with attending, only to collapse with burnout once home. The rigid, pointless discipline, and the uncomfortable, rigid uniform are

Regarding uniform, I am against it. Schools don't have uniform where I grew up and it was never an issue. I also think that clothing and hair is where teens have ample space rebel - let them! You can't tell a child 'be an individual, grow and be your best self' (and such insincere platitudes (but 'don't you dare wear a red earring or loosen your tie if you're hot.

Having said all that, if you are going to make them wear uniform, have it comfortable and flexible. And get rid of those bloody blazers! They are sweaty/cold and very uncomfortable. Plus it makes the kids look ridiculous! - especially the 4-foot year 7s). The ties could do one as well.

Needmorelego · 26/04/2024 08:35

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 08:24

If it's a good school you do lots of amazing stuff.
Biology for one. Art.

Well maybe.....but schools have to follow the national curriculum and what's on the GCSE syllabus.
Biology might be interesting - but it's only "relevant" if you can remember it all for the exam paper. That's how the system is - "you must know this because it on the exam paper" not "you should learn this because it's interesting and useful". It's that thinking that is putting teens off school.

Bornnotbourne · 26/04/2024 08:37

I think the problem is, not only poor parenting, but also the attitude of wider society in general. We infantilise teenagers then spit them out with no life skills. I’ve been criticised by my neighbours for letting my 11 year old walk home from school, go to the shop and do some very basic cooking. They are in their 70’s and 80’s but seem to have forgotten they were working at 15!! It’s made me doubt my decisions at times but she insists on doing these things so we’re carrying on.

stickygotstuck · 26/04/2024 08:38

This got cut off - The rigid, pointless discipline, and the uncomfortable, rigid uniform do not help

LlynTegid · 26/04/2024 08:51

Perhaps it should start with basic respect from government for the teaching profession, and having a competent Education Secretary.

Parents do have a role to play of course. I am sure if a child could be refused a place because of parental behaviour towards the school (not advocating it), there would be half empty classes in some.

Mirabai · 26/04/2024 08:51

Needmorelego · 26/04/2024 08:35

Well maybe.....but schools have to follow the national curriculum and what's on the GCSE syllabus.
Biology might be interesting - but it's only "relevant" if you can remember it all for the exam paper. That's how the system is - "you must know this because it on the exam paper" not "you should learn this because it's interesting and useful". It's that thinking that is putting teens off school.

The principle is that you learnt this stuff because it’s useful and interesting. You’re examined on it to ensure you understood and memorised it and to prove that you took the course.

NoisySnail · 26/04/2024 08:57

Things have changed. I went to a very rough school in a very disadvantaged area. We had families with up to 16 children who were wild. We also had experienced teachers who could control classes and exclusion policies. Things were not perfect, but most lessons were fine. Ongoing low level disruption was not an every day experience.

When I was at school everyone behaved more badly for cover teachers. I agree good teaching depends on relationships, and cover staff do not have the opportunity to build these.

Needmorelego · 26/04/2024 09:02

@Mirabai yes but most GCSEs are now 100% exam papers to get the grades. It's all down to a couple of hours in am exam hall that just shows you can memorise facts.
When I did my GCSEs it was a mix of coursework, modular tests and final exams - the results of which were all added up to the final grade.
So with science we did 6 week modules. So in the first half term of 4th year (Year 10 now) a subject would be studied and then a small exam paper taken. In the second half term - a different subject within science.....and so on.
If it was something interesting/useful you would remember it. Not to get a grade - just remember it in life (and you've got the grade through the module exam - so if you don't really remember it - it doesn't matter).
Now you would need to remember it for the exam taken a year and a half later. You would need to revise it over and over. The same thing being taught again and again.
That's why so many teens are switched off.

Curlewwoohoo · 26/04/2024 09:26

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 05:36

Private or academies or religious (more funding)

Or lots of tutoring

It is an academy.
Can't afford private.
Tutors might help the academic achievement but do nothing about a shit experience at school.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 09:58

Needmorelego · 26/04/2024 09:02

@Mirabai yes but most GCSEs are now 100% exam papers to get the grades. It's all down to a couple of hours in am exam hall that just shows you can memorise facts.
When I did my GCSEs it was a mix of coursework, modular tests and final exams - the results of which were all added up to the final grade.
So with science we did 6 week modules. So in the first half term of 4th year (Year 10 now) a subject would be studied and then a small exam paper taken. In the second half term - a different subject within science.....and so on.
If it was something interesting/useful you would remember it. Not to get a grade - just remember it in life (and you've got the grade through the module exam - so if you don't really remember it - it doesn't matter).
Now you would need to remember it for the exam taken a year and a half later. You would need to revise it over and over. The same thing being taught again and again.
That's why so many teens are switched off.

Edited

Biology if taught well is a life skill
It's the whole world infront of you.

There does need to be more coursework. That's more expensive to run. Which is why they aren't doing it partly.

I don't think learning facts is a bad thing per se.

I hear this a lot as I am a uni lecturer.

However, you do need to remember things!

If you enjoy it and understand it you can remember things.

At times you do need to force yourself to remember things. Use it or lose it!

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 10:00

@Curlewwoohoo couldn't agree more!

Yea that's how I feel about my dd.
She says she loved the years when she messed about. But I think she's missed out. My school was just so full of learning.

Needmorelego · 26/04/2024 10:09

@Flyhigher the science I did for GCSE was combined science so the modules would be half a term of biology, half a term of chemistry, half a term of physics and so on.
I actually remember (just over 30 years later) a lot of the biology. Some of the chemistry. Very little of the physics because I simply didn't understand then - it was totally over my head.
If I was doing GCSEs now I would struggle to have to go over and over (aka "revision") the same things constantly.
I preferred the style of -
Learn it.
Get tested on it.
If it's interesting/useful in your life you will remember it. If not....move on to learning something new.
We did modular Humanities too. I remember two of the modules fondly - a geography one about urbanisation and a history one about medicine (discovery of penicillin).
I am still fascinated by urbanisation now.