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Behaviour going to shit in schools

278 replies

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 17:53

Government data shows that on average schools are losing about a quarter of lesson time to poor behaviour.

"In May 2023, 76 per cent of teachers reported that misbehaviour “stopped or interrupted teaching” in at least some lessons in the past week, up from 64 per cent in June 2022."

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-lose-a-quarter-of-lesson-time-to-poor-behaviour-dfe-survey/

There needs to be discussion about what is going on. As well as poor behaviour in classrooms increasing, school attendance is a massive problem, and internal truancy where kids are in school but not attending lessons is also an increasing issue.

Covid is pointed to as 'breaking the social contract between schools and families' as a reason for increasing absence. One reason for increasing absence is an increase in term-time holidays. I'm not so sure that this is a result of covid and social contracts so much as the cost of living crisis and the extortionate price of holidays out of term time. Increased sickness absence is also an issue. One wonders why the government hasn't clocked the connection between a recent pandemic and increased sickness absence. Their response is to tell parents to send children in when ill. I'm sure that will help.

But why are kids increasingly not behaving when in school?

Social media, lack of parental interest in education etc etc. No doubt they all contribute. But my theory is:

Schools are an increasingly shit experience for kids.

People keep talking about the curriculum being boring and an overloaded and dry curriculum is obviously an issue, but we've had the same curriculum for nearly a decade now. What has been getting worse, particularly in recent years?

Teacher recruitment and retention.
One thing that is massively important in schools for kids is consistency. Consistent teachers that they can build relationships with and rely on are a hugely underrated part of the school experience.

They are not getting that. Recruitment is a massive issue, so instead of having permanent teachers a lot of the time, they are getting supply. Maybe they stay for a few months, then it's someone new. If they're lucky, it's someone who knows the subject. If they're unlucky, it's a different person every day who knows nothing. If they're really unlucky (as in the case with some of my sixth form) it's no one.

Kids see cover lessons in secondary as a doss. They don't expect to have to do any work in them. I see kids head to a class with a cover teacher then the whisper to go down the corridor "Yes! We've got supply!" (Don't get me wrong there are some excellent supply teachers out there, working in increasingly challenging circumstances. But we are also in the situation of having to put a warm body, any warm body in front of a class).

It's happening more and more often. Parents are starting to complain about the amount of cover lessons their children are having. But there's nothing the school can do about it.

I've had kids come to my lesson and say 'miss, I've had cover all morning, I can't be expected to behave now'. And they're bouncing off the walls. Lack of routine, lack of consistency, lack of clear expectations and experience and they can't handle it.

And the amount of classrooms without teachers is increasing. Figures for teacher recruitment next year are grim. They were grim last year.

Expect more cover lessons.

Behaviour going to shit in schools
OP posts:
Skodacool · 26/04/2024 01:25

mitogoshi · 25/04/2024 18:09

It's not new, all these issues 10 years ago when dd was at school, but that as a school in a low educational achievement area, predominantly white working class with high unemployment. The difference is that middle class kids are now misbehaving too.

My thoughts (I'm not an expert just someone who has had 2 go through the system and younger nieces and nephews) are that permissive parenting, lack of boundaries when young and far too much autonomy at home is to blame. It starts with not making toddlers sit at the table for dinner - no this doesn't sound connected but it teaches the young child that they don't have to do what you say, they start school and don't want to listen to the teacher ... oh and I'm convinced screens of the phone and tablet variety are changing our ability to concentrate and not in a positive way. I see it in myself

This

Meadowfinch · 26/04/2024 02:57

@anxioussister You are right. The engagement of parents and commitment to the school are essential.

DS school is unfashionable, academic. Fee-paying but yet we still have a PTA. The parents work hard to raise extra funds for the school, the non-uniform, bring a raffle prize days and bake sales. The annual school fayre and the fundraisers for sports equipment and trips. Last year a new filtration unit for the (out door) school pool.

BathshebaEverdene1 · 26/04/2024 03:20

Tbh I think too many teachers have been too horrible/ dismissive/ unkind/ violent/ ETC./ anti parent/ stasi like over too long and that is why parents /grandparents have a BAD ATTITUDE which has now filtered down . Only to be expected tbh.
It's also the way SOME teachers expected to be treated as demi gods on the strength of a mediocre degree and a teaching cert.
An unpopular opinion perhaps. I am from a family of teachers and have distinct memories of SOME people sitting around guffawing about children's perceived stupidity or mocking them for having a social worker or telling racist jokes .
It's the way they expect " respect " as " professionals " tbh.

Bumpinthenight · 26/04/2024 04:01

I'm not sure the 'new' grading of GCSE exams help parents be positive towards their child and education either.

A B, which is a great grade, is now a 6 or 5 out of 9, which in my mind sounds rubbish so goodness knows what it does to children's motivation.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 05:01

JojoSeawitchHasBeenABadBadGirl · 25/04/2024 22:21

*Many teachers leaving the profession. Lots of subs.

Also.. my DD school got taken over by an academy and the difference is marked in a year.

Much more emphasis on not being late to lessons. Less on earrings and nail varnish.

The isolation room closed. I cannot believe such a barbaric prison esque feature was even used. Seems like it's common in state funded schools.

School cultures are poor. Too much overcrowding.

Not enough assessment and year end exams which focuses the minds.

Also more mixed ability classes which I just think leads to more messing about.

As it's not cool to work hard.

Costs going up due to fuel and Liz Truss so less money to pay for staff and good subs.

Staff ill and leaving.*

  1. Once the subs = double-figures of day to day, it becomes a bloodbath. Decent Heads of Department either collapse classes and divide among colleagues or rotate which class gets hit for cover.
  2. Emphasis on earrings/jewellery/uniform fluctuates from school to school. DD's pays more credence to punctuality/earrings/60 denier tights than to glue sticks being hurled across the room/vaping/swearing.
  3. Behaviour Units/Emotional Support Units are important to protect learning. The first as a consequence to poor choices. The second as a Safe Space for the vulnerable.
  4. All schools I know do half termly assessments/end of unit tests and have an end of year exam. What they seem to do less of is weekly marking (other than tick and flick)/continuous assessment.
  5. No Mixed Ability = Sink Sets

I saw a sink set being taught. It had about 12 kids in it and it was basic fractions and the kids were really well behaved.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 05:05

Our school has also switched to hour long lessons. That helped boredom and behaviour too.

Vault4 · 26/04/2024 05:31

Needmorelego · 25/04/2024 18:17

I have no scientific evidence for this - this is just my opinion.....
I think a lot of (GCSE age) teens just simply don't want to be there. They are "done" with school.
They can read, write and do enough maths to function in society and would rather just be out there earning money and getting on with life.
They don't see the point in a lot of what they have to learn (analysing Shakespeare etc).
There should be more apprenticeships and they should be able to start them at 14.
They piss around at school because they are bored and frustrated.

@Needmorelego interesting, I find the opposite. Students are getting weaker on average (poorer reading, writing, listening skills) plus more special needs. So they find the work too difficult or can't access the work. They get frustrated or don't want to ask for help or admit they don't understand in front of their peers. So they act out instead, and eventually get sent out to avoid having to do the work. They usually behave better in subjects such as pe or art because they can access it. Behaviour is usually worse in maths and science. A lot of it is pointless though and I wish more of it was relevant to everyday life. And I agree about apprenticeships. There's no need for everyone to study three sciences up until 16 for example.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 05:33

@Rainydayze surely his needs must have been apparent in primary?
How did his primary education go so wrong? And agree Shakespeare and algebra for everyone is pointless. Gove got rid of foundation English.
Foundation maths has a lot of content.

Some kids should do 6 subjects and spend more time on those.

English combined. 1 gcse
Maths
Combined sciences foundation level
3 choices 1 tech 1 humanities

There's no foundation in humanities. History is pretty rammed with content.

Should have foundation with coursework again.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 05:34

Academies can expel kids much easier.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 05:36

Curlewwoohoo · 25/04/2024 19:35

I find threads like this really worrying. I worry for my yr4 Dd who is hard working and loves school but is dyslexic and might fall in the lower sets. I worry for my younger ds who seems like a smart but could get turned off. There is only one secondary in my town so no choices.

Private or academies or religious (more funding)

Or lots of tutoring

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 05:41

Fuckmyliferightnow · 25/04/2024 20:01

I agree a pp said kids are bored and frustrated, not to mention fed up with being bullied over their uniform. We have it all wrong in this country, we put too much focus on unimportant stuff, which is actually taking away from learning time.

Uniform is fine. It's the jewellery obsession that drives me nuts.
Two earrings are fine. A bracelet is fine.
Our school has relaxed on jewellery and things are much better.

Also year 11. No subs.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 05:47

JojoSeawitchHasBeenABadBadGirl · 25/04/2024 20:12

  1. Students should be taught to learn how to learn
  2. There should be more provision for what they'd like to learn/exploratory learning rather than learning by rote
  3. There should be more emphasise on life skills/practical skills
  4. There ought to be an overhaul as to what we need to teach for a future which will be led by industry 4.0/AI/sustainable living solutions
  5. The school day should start and end much later, given teenage brains
  6. Free School Meals, water fountains, bottled milk and breakfast clubs should be available to all, not means-tested
Edited

Really not buying the teenage brains lie in later thing. It's a bad habit they slide into.
Everyone performs better in the morning. After 8 hours of night sleep.
Your core rem is at night. If you miss it you never get your full sleep. So sleep longer to try to get it. But you can't.

TheaBrandt · 26/04/2024 05:57

Seems to be a perfect storm of various factors agree with most other comments.

Family members have between them been teaching since 70s and now. The real change has been parent attitude. Parents used to be basically on the side of the school. A letter home was deeply feared because you would get it in the neck from parents backing up the school. Now the reverse is true.

The curriculum is insane my teens are doing pretty much exactly the same courses I did and I’m nearly 50. Teacher morale and retention is on the floor. Some are excellent. Some are weirdly aggressive but probably driven to it so I have sympathy. Basically needs wholesale reform. Society so different now our education system has not caught up.

Jennybeans401 · 26/04/2024 06:13

It's very sad to see.My eldest has no specialist teacher for Science or Maths and this has been since September so not a new problem. Standards have dropped but there's still loads of pressures on the children.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 06:15

Can I ask are big state / catholic 6th forms any better?

Is subs still a problem in the big 6th form colleges?
And how is behaviour?
Really hoping it's much better. Give me hope!!

TheaBrandt · 26/04/2024 06:17

Dd stayed at her school for 6th form because of the teachers. In the first term of year 12 each of the 3 excellent teachers from each of the 3 a level subjects left. She came home in tears. Her grade requirement is A star AA and she will be competing with children from private schools with better support and better teaching. She’s working her arse off but I feel she has one hand tied behind her back frankly,

Treetophouse · 26/04/2024 06:22

With the gvt budget cuts for this year, supply won't be an issue as schools will no longer be able to afford it. 🤷‍♀️ schools are at breaking point with deficit budgets now the norm due to lack of funding and a major recruitment and retention crisis. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with mega classes being taught by one teacher via screens and no differentiation for anyone's individual needs. It's so sad to see.

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 06:25

I meant are the big 6th form colleges having the same problem with teachers leaving?

Not the school 6th forms. Where I imagine they get sick of teaching years 7-11 and leave.

So sorry for your DD. Is it too late to move her?

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 06:26

Any 6th college only teachers on here? To give that perspective?

TheaBrandt · 26/04/2024 06:31

Dd2 said yesterday how no one is pushed. She’s getting ok grades in some subjects she is weaker at but has volunteered for extra classes to push her gcse grade higher the vibe from the school to her is your grades are “fine” why bother. Her friends at private school are pushed. Dd2 is having to push herself. I have always been pro state and recoil from the elitism of private schools but this is so sad to hear from her.

TheaBrandt · 26/04/2024 06:34

The teacher shortage is across the board. Ours is the best state in the county all girl minimal disruption if we have issues with teacher retention Christ knows what more challenging schools are facing.

frozendaisy · 26/04/2024 06:37

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 05:34

Academies can expel kids much easier.

Yeah it's great it gets the disruptive ones out.

MrsTulip · 26/04/2024 06:37

I'm a 1:1 TA for a Y5 pupil in a mainstream primary school. Thankfully on the whole behaviour from the pupils is good across school. Some of the parents can be verbally aggressive and threaten violence (not that many this year) but then they are warned that will not be allowed on site and the police will be called if needed- usually stops them at this point.
My actual 1:1 child on the other hand although not physically or verbally challenging, does purposefully take forever to anything - 2 hours to write 3 sentences yesterday (got to stay with him, so cant go and be more productive) and when doing discussion work just stares at me/teacher/other child and refuses to say anything. It's draining. I'm considering moving on at the end of the year because it's so frustrating which is a shame because I love the school/staff/ most of the kids. My previous 1:1 (which changed to current January 2023) was more challenging but she was amazing.

DanglingMod · 26/04/2024 06:47

Flyhigher · 26/04/2024 06:25

I meant are the big 6th form colleges having the same problem with teachers leaving?

Not the school 6th forms. Where I imagine they get sick of teaching years 7-11 and leave.

So sorry for your DD. Is it too late to move her?

Some counties/areas only have school sixth forms and the colleges are for vocational subjects, so for millions of children, your query isn't relevant.

But, FWIW, I have two friends who are department heads at FE colleges and say behaviour is shocking there, too, and they are losing staff at a rate of knots due to stress, the same as schools.

Mrttyl · 26/04/2024 06:54

I don’t think people value education in this country very much. The lack of protest over pubs opening before schools during covid rather proved that.

I think the fact that teachers are being used by the government to do social work has blurred the lines and understandably caused parents to resent teachers more.

The fact that an increasing number of parents seem to think that their child’s behaviour is someone else’s problem and responsibility doesn’t help. Parents blame schools when their children get in trouble for being late, absent, disruptive etc. but workplaces are far less accommodating than schools and parents will probably be the ones left supporting their adult children (I doubt the state will be able to afford to).

I also think there should be far more fun sport, exercise, dog walking, yoga etc. in schools. Children and teenagers are naturally very active. They genuinely love running around and they should be doing more of it. They would be happier and they might be able to concentrate better. I don’t mean horrible old fashioned sports style teaching. I mean wearing flattering/comfortable sports wear and have a range of options to get involved in.

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