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Behaviour going to shit in schools

278 replies

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 17:53

Government data shows that on average schools are losing about a quarter of lesson time to poor behaviour.

"In May 2023, 76 per cent of teachers reported that misbehaviour “stopped or interrupted teaching” in at least some lessons in the past week, up from 64 per cent in June 2022."

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-lose-a-quarter-of-lesson-time-to-poor-behaviour-dfe-survey/

There needs to be discussion about what is going on. As well as poor behaviour in classrooms increasing, school attendance is a massive problem, and internal truancy where kids are in school but not attending lessons is also an increasing issue.

Covid is pointed to as 'breaking the social contract between schools and families' as a reason for increasing absence. One reason for increasing absence is an increase in term-time holidays. I'm not so sure that this is a result of covid and social contracts so much as the cost of living crisis and the extortionate price of holidays out of term time. Increased sickness absence is also an issue. One wonders why the government hasn't clocked the connection between a recent pandemic and increased sickness absence. Their response is to tell parents to send children in when ill. I'm sure that will help.

But why are kids increasingly not behaving when in school?

Social media, lack of parental interest in education etc etc. No doubt they all contribute. But my theory is:

Schools are an increasingly shit experience for kids.

People keep talking about the curriculum being boring and an overloaded and dry curriculum is obviously an issue, but we've had the same curriculum for nearly a decade now. What has been getting worse, particularly in recent years?

Teacher recruitment and retention.
One thing that is massively important in schools for kids is consistency. Consistent teachers that they can build relationships with and rely on are a hugely underrated part of the school experience.

They are not getting that. Recruitment is a massive issue, so instead of having permanent teachers a lot of the time, they are getting supply. Maybe they stay for a few months, then it's someone new. If they're lucky, it's someone who knows the subject. If they're unlucky, it's a different person every day who knows nothing. If they're really unlucky (as in the case with some of my sixth form) it's no one.

Kids see cover lessons in secondary as a doss. They don't expect to have to do any work in them. I see kids head to a class with a cover teacher then the whisper to go down the corridor "Yes! We've got supply!" (Don't get me wrong there are some excellent supply teachers out there, working in increasingly challenging circumstances. But we are also in the situation of having to put a warm body, any warm body in front of a class).

It's happening more and more often. Parents are starting to complain about the amount of cover lessons their children are having. But there's nothing the school can do about it.

I've had kids come to my lesson and say 'miss, I've had cover all morning, I can't be expected to behave now'. And they're bouncing off the walls. Lack of routine, lack of consistency, lack of clear expectations and experience and they can't handle it.

And the amount of classrooms without teachers is increasing. Figures for teacher recruitment next year are grim. They were grim last year.

Expect more cover lessons.

Behaviour going to shit in schools
OP posts:
HipTightOnions · 25/04/2024 19:02

plenty are just plodding away until retirement

Well, maybe, but not where I am.

Our very capable and experienced teachers are retiring early and we are having to take on replacements - when we can get them - who are just not of the same calibre.

ladymalfoy45 · 25/04/2024 19:03

I went to an 'Outstanding' school before the Easter break.(inspected last year) . The behavior was appalling. Chairs being thrown and fire alarm set off twice.
I chose to move to supply teaching because I wanted a real work/life balance.
There are only two schools I will go to now because behavior is such an issue.
SLT/SMT need to step up and deal with the behavior.
Our DD will be in Y7 in 18 months ( give or take). I'm scared about what she may experience at any of the high schools in the catchment area and I say that as someone who has taught in all of them.
So ,yes. Behaviour is going to shit.
And I still think of the little picture with those dots on where two were red. The red dots were the pupils that may have caused issues. It was to show us that we focus on the 'naughties' not the rest of the class.
I'm focusing on the pupils who are keeping their heads down but it's because they are scared of the six or seven pupils throwing chairs ,glue sticks and threatening violence at break and lunch time.
And SLT/SMT are nowhere to be seen.
Meanwhile,on Social Media parents are up in arms about this behaviour but the schools do nothing.

RemarkablyBrightCreature · 25/04/2024 19:04

mitogoshi · 25/04/2024 18:09

It's not new, all these issues 10 years ago when dd was at school, but that as a school in a low educational achievement area, predominantly white working class with high unemployment. The difference is that middle class kids are now misbehaving too.

My thoughts (I'm not an expert just someone who has had 2 go through the system and younger nieces and nephews) are that permissive parenting, lack of boundaries when young and far too much autonomy at home is to blame. It starts with not making toddlers sit at the table for dinner - no this doesn't sound connected but it teaches the young child that they don't have to do what you say, they start school and don't want to listen to the teacher ... oh and I'm convinced screens of the phone and tablet variety are changing our ability to concentrate and not in a positive way. I see it in myself

We really need to stop saying “it’s nothing new” as that is total bollocks - the sheer SCALE of the problem absolutely is new, it’s down to 14 years of austerity and the effects of social media and Covid. Please can we stop pretending “‘‘twas ever thus” as then nothing changes and this shitty nasty government don’t get blamed for destroying the education sector in the same way they’re destroyed so much of this country 🤬.

UtterlyQuackers · 25/04/2024 19:07

Some people don't value education. Some parents do not support the schools. Most of the courses offered are coached through the exams. No love of learning. The list goes on and on. The system is broken.

Surprisingly, nothing will change. All the people with the power to change the education system send their children to private school. An uneducated population is easier to control.

An uneducated and sick population is even easier to control. Funnily enough those same people can afford private healthcare. Look at the state of the NHS.

XelaM · 25/04/2024 19:10

My friend in Germany is a teacher. She brings home 4K after tax and she has a guaranteed job for life. This is at a local sink school and she's a young teacher, so her salary will go up and up throughout her career.

Until the UK starts paying their teachers properly, there will always be a teacher recruitment/retention crisis.

TitusMoan · 25/04/2024 19:14

melonhead · 25/04/2024 18:22

Are we not allowed to mention on Mumsnet that there are loads of shit teachers too? I know there are many great teachers who put their all into their job but let's accept that plenty are just plodding away until retirement.

Why do we all remember those one or two great teachers? It's because there aren't many of them...

Secondary school teachers have to teach young people who are just discovering other things in life which generally they consider to be a lot more important than lessons. It’s not easy.

I suppose you’re really great at your job?

Xtraincome · 25/04/2024 19:15

Needmorelego · 25/04/2024 18:17

I have no scientific evidence for this - this is just my opinion.....
I think a lot of (GCSE age) teens just simply don't want to be there. They are "done" with school.
They can read, write and do enough maths to function in society and would rather just be out there earning money and getting on with life.
They don't see the point in a lot of what they have to learn (analysing Shakespeare etc).
There should be more apprenticeships and they should be able to start them at 14.
They piss around at school because they are bored and frustrated.

Shall we start a new political party? I agree with this in spades. Who on earth wants to do equations until aged 16 or analyse Jane Austen (I did the latter, but others didn't of course 😅) education is incredibly limited.

However, parenting really is 50% of the problem though.

Rainydayze · 25/04/2024 19:19

imnotthatkindofmum · 25/04/2024 18:50

As a teacher I think that one of the overriding issues is that the curriculum is not fit for purpose. So many kids can't access the curriculum, we can't accommodate all of the needs. As a secondary teacher I find my exam syllabus is completely overwhelming for many kids, way too much content which relives time for cognitive development.

Kids are fed up with feeling like they can't do the work.

Add poor mental health care and lack of places in alternative provisions and it's a recipe for low motivation and distraction.

This. As a mum of a child in the lowest set, with a range of developmental issues and the need to access a much lower than his chronological age curriculum, it feels like the government’s one size fits all does nothing to engage some children. My son is in the bottom class of a large school and the behaviour generally is shocking, but no one in that class can access the curriculum taught. The incentives for messing about in terms of peer amusement are higher than the rewards for hard work - however hard DS works he can’t achieve. And we are a family who value education, manage behaviour etc etc, but he’s going to school to fail.

AnneElliott · 25/04/2024 19:21

It's parenting I think- parents that weren't parented themselves and therefore don't even know what to do (even if they wanted better for their kids).

DS went to a catholic school that was really strict and then a grammar so didn't really have that level of disruption. But I went to a sink school and was determined he'd not have the same experience.

Teachers need to be respected and the SLT need to back discipline. But if the parents don't care then it's harder to enforce.

EmilyTheCriminal · 25/04/2024 19:22

melonhead · 25/04/2024 18:22

Are we not allowed to mention on Mumsnet that there are loads of shit teachers too? I know there are many great teachers who put their all into their job but let's accept that plenty are just plodding away until retirement.

Why do we all remember those one or two great teachers? It's because there aren't many of them...

There are barely any teachers over 40 teaching in primary schools, at least not in my experience.

Plus everyone I qualified with in the late 1990s, or started working with, left teaching years ago.

twistyizzy · 25/04/2024 19:28
  • poor parenting
  • restrictive and boring national curriculum
  • obsession with targets/tests
  • Ofsted
  • lack of funding
  • budget cuts mean experienced teachers leave and newly qualified take their place because they are cheaper
  • compulsory education until 18
  • lack of vocational options at 14-16
  • rise in SEN
  • Rise in mental health issues in young children with long waiting lists for support
  • schools unable to exclude or expel the worst behaved kids
Xtraincome · 25/04/2024 19:29

My biggest worry is what the future looks like. There will be 1 cohort of kids who were supported and successful in education of varying degrees and outcomes. Then there will be a cohort of uneducated drains on the state, that will extend the class division and create a horrible society to live in in 20 years for our kids.

I am looking at online schools for my eldest DD at present.

user8800 · 25/04/2024 19:31

The govt and right wing media have been very successful at demonising schools/teachers

Parents buy it 🤷‍♀️

twinkletoesimnot · 25/04/2024 19:33

I want to start by saying that I in no way think that SEN is the same as poor behaviour.

However, Ime, lack if support for the children in my class with SEN is making it increasingly difficult for me to have high expectations of behaviour.

An 8 year old finds it hard to understand why Bob can go outside and run around when he feels like it, why Sam can draw when he wants instead of doing his work and why Tim is allowed to shout out all the time.

Of course this is not what is actually happening, but you could forgive them for thinking it. I have had parents question me on it.
We need more help and more money.

Curlewwoohoo · 25/04/2024 19:35

I find threads like this really worrying. I worry for my yr4 Dd who is hard working and loves school but is dyslexic and might fall in the lower sets. I worry for my younger ds who seems like a smart but could get turned off. There is only one secondary in my town so no choices.

imnotthatkindofmum · 25/04/2024 19:44

Lack of teachers is also a huge factor. My department is currently down 2 teachers. 2 of us are running the whole gcse curriculum. It's a popular option subject with 6 classes in each of year 9, 10, 11. We have many split classes with non specialists teaching the ones we don't. The majority of ks3 in my subject is being taught my non specialists just slotting extra lessons into their timetables and a long term supply. These year 7s and 8s will struggle at ks4, if they even choose the subject! No applications for the roles and every other school in town advertising for the same. (Although at least they're actually paying for ads! My school being very stingy with recruitment budget which is not helping.

Article in guardian about survey by dept of ed in 2023 says this about teaching

The survey found that unfilled teaching vacancies were also at a record high, with more than 2,300 empty posts compared with 530 a decade earlier. A further 3,300 posts were filled by supply teachers, 1,000 more than the year before.

A lot of kids just can't see the point when thy know their teacher is not even remotely interested in what they're teaching.

ChicaneOvenchips · 25/04/2024 19:49

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 18:02

A lot of discussion on MN about behaviour in schools is moaning about how strict they are....if a quarter of lesson time is being lost to poor behaviour, then perhaps that's not true.

I actually think it is a reflection of this. Ridiculous rules, complete lack of relationship building with individuals, one size (sanction) fits all. Kids, and parents, are just getting to the point where this strictness is met with an eye roll and a deep seated understanding that they ought not take the schools desperate, over the top attempts to control every single aspect of a student's attitude, appearance and behaviour as a reflection on themselves /their child. Pick your battles and all that.

Too much over the top and unfair behaviour management has the opposite effect of what they hope to achieve. There is only so much scolding for pathetic reasons that a good, well behaved, kind child can take before they switch off from it all together.

I truly believe that the next direction and focus of ofsted is going to be child wellbeing, and bullying teachers and total rigid school environment will be indicators of inad/ requires improvement. We're already seeing it, very very slowly change in children's services.

Bing123 · 25/04/2024 19:53

'Too much over the top and unfair behaviour management has the opposite effect of what they hope to achieve. There is only so much scolding for pathetic reasons that a good, well behaved, kind child can take before they switch off from it all together.'

And yet Michaela with their ultra strict behaviour policy has the best progress 8 score in the country.

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 19:54

@twistyizzy budget cuts mean experienced teachers leave and newly qualified take their place because they are cheaper

This used to be the case, but look at the graph in the OP. There aren't the newly qualified teachers to take their place. It's a massive problem.

Schools are starting to recruit for September. There will be lots of schools who will not be able to hire anyone for those positions. They will go into September down teachers and have to scrabble around for any warm body to put in front of those kids.

My department is currently down two teachers. We have had a variety of people fill those positions since September. It's not good for the kids.

Behaviour going to shit in schools
OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 19:57

Curlewwoohoo · 25/04/2024 19:35

I find threads like this really worrying. I worry for my yr4 Dd who is hard working and loves school but is dyslexic and might fall in the lower sets. I worry for my younger ds who seems like a smart but could get turned off. There is only one secondary in my town so no choices.

We are headed into a General Election. Education is currently not particularly high up the political agenda.

Parents who are worried about what is going on in schools need to be demanding solutions from their politicians. Politicians will only think it's important if they believe voters think it's important.

https://www.writetothem.com/

WriteToThem

WriteToThem is a website which provides an easy way to contact MPs, councillors and other elected representatives.

https://www.writetothem.com/

OP posts:
Fuckmyliferightnow · 25/04/2024 20:01

I agree a pp said kids are bored and frustrated, not to mention fed up with being bullied over their uniform. We have it all wrong in this country, we put too much focus on unimportant stuff, which is actually taking away from learning time.

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 20:01

TitusMoan · 25/04/2024 19:14

Secondary school teachers have to teach young people who are just discovering other things in life which generally they consider to be a lot more important than lessons. It’s not easy.

I suppose you’re really great at your job?

Secondary teachers have always had to teach young people who are just discovering other things, and yet behaviour is declining. So it must be something else.

I am great at my job, thanks. One of the good things about me as a teacher is that I am always there. The kids remark on it, that they never have cover lessons for maths when I'm their teacher, because it's so unusual. Consistency of teacher is massively underrated in teaching.

OP posts:
IkeaMeatballGravy · 25/04/2024 20:02

Everything is a bit shit at the moment isn't it? So it makes sense that children are feeling it too.

tracktrail · 25/04/2024 20:03

Curriculum not fit for purpose
No option to leave at 14+, for apprenticeships or jobs
Poor parenting
Teaching not the respected profession it was. (the wages reflect it)
Very few special schools for SEND or behaviour issues
Pupils with nothing to fear, adults have only authority with consent of children.

Globules · 25/04/2024 20:03

Why?

The increased percentage of 4, 5, 6 and 7 year olds who have a meltdown when you say no to them would be a major factor I feel. And their parents who excuse away the meltdowns as schools fault for saying no and not letting their child express themselves.

I teach in a very different landscape to the one I started in 25 years ago.