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Behaviour going to shit in schools

278 replies

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 17:53

Government data shows that on average schools are losing about a quarter of lesson time to poor behaviour.

"In May 2023, 76 per cent of teachers reported that misbehaviour “stopped or interrupted teaching” in at least some lessons in the past week, up from 64 per cent in June 2022."

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-lose-a-quarter-of-lesson-time-to-poor-behaviour-dfe-survey/

There needs to be discussion about what is going on. As well as poor behaviour in classrooms increasing, school attendance is a massive problem, and internal truancy where kids are in school but not attending lessons is also an increasing issue.

Covid is pointed to as 'breaking the social contract between schools and families' as a reason for increasing absence. One reason for increasing absence is an increase in term-time holidays. I'm not so sure that this is a result of covid and social contracts so much as the cost of living crisis and the extortionate price of holidays out of term time. Increased sickness absence is also an issue. One wonders why the government hasn't clocked the connection between a recent pandemic and increased sickness absence. Their response is to tell parents to send children in when ill. I'm sure that will help.

But why are kids increasingly not behaving when in school?

Social media, lack of parental interest in education etc etc. No doubt they all contribute. But my theory is:

Schools are an increasingly shit experience for kids.

People keep talking about the curriculum being boring and an overloaded and dry curriculum is obviously an issue, but we've had the same curriculum for nearly a decade now. What has been getting worse, particularly in recent years?

Teacher recruitment and retention.
One thing that is massively important in schools for kids is consistency. Consistent teachers that they can build relationships with and rely on are a hugely underrated part of the school experience.

They are not getting that. Recruitment is a massive issue, so instead of having permanent teachers a lot of the time, they are getting supply. Maybe they stay for a few months, then it's someone new. If they're lucky, it's someone who knows the subject. If they're unlucky, it's a different person every day who knows nothing. If they're really unlucky (as in the case with some of my sixth form) it's no one.

Kids see cover lessons in secondary as a doss. They don't expect to have to do any work in them. I see kids head to a class with a cover teacher then the whisper to go down the corridor "Yes! We've got supply!" (Don't get me wrong there are some excellent supply teachers out there, working in increasingly challenging circumstances. But we are also in the situation of having to put a warm body, any warm body in front of a class).

It's happening more and more often. Parents are starting to complain about the amount of cover lessons their children are having. But there's nothing the school can do about it.

I've had kids come to my lesson and say 'miss, I've had cover all morning, I can't be expected to behave now'. And they're bouncing off the walls. Lack of routine, lack of consistency, lack of clear expectations and experience and they can't handle it.

And the amount of classrooms without teachers is increasing. Figures for teacher recruitment next year are grim. They were grim last year.

Expect more cover lessons.

Behaviour going to shit in schools
OP posts:
OriginalUsername2 · 25/04/2024 17:58

There has been a huge amount of discussion on MN tbh. Not saying there shouldn’t be any more.

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 18:00

This government data was released today.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 18:02

A lot of discussion on MN about behaviour in schools is moaning about how strict they are....if a quarter of lesson time is being lost to poor behaviour, then perhaps that's not true.

OP posts:
midgetastic · 25/04/2024 18:04

Insufficient school options for those who can't cope maintsream - short or long term - because that needs a lot more teachers ?

mitogoshi · 25/04/2024 18:09

It's not new, all these issues 10 years ago when dd was at school, but that as a school in a low educational achievement area, predominantly white working class with high unemployment. The difference is that middle class kids are now misbehaving too.

My thoughts (I'm not an expert just someone who has had 2 go through the system and younger nieces and nephews) are that permissive parenting, lack of boundaries when young and far too much autonomy at home is to blame. It starts with not making toddlers sit at the table for dinner - no this doesn't sound connected but it teaches the young child that they don't have to do what you say, they start school and don't want to listen to the teacher ... oh and I'm convinced screens of the phone and tablet variety are changing our ability to concentrate and not in a positive way. I see it in myself

MehGeography · 25/04/2024 18:09

If you ask me, it's because a lot a parents have very little respect for teachers and the ultimate weapon of speaking to mum is no longer the ultimate weapon. As for far too many you speak to her and she believes her child's version of events and backs them not you.
Forgot to add I'm a primary school teacher

Needmorelego · 25/04/2024 18:17

I have no scientific evidence for this - this is just my opinion.....
I think a lot of (GCSE age) teens just simply don't want to be there. They are "done" with school.
They can read, write and do enough maths to function in society and would rather just be out there earning money and getting on with life.
They don't see the point in a lot of what they have to learn (analysing Shakespeare etc).
There should be more apprenticeships and they should be able to start them at 14.
They piss around at school because they are bored and frustrated.

Oneofthesurvivors · 25/04/2024 18:18

MehGeography · 25/04/2024 18:09

If you ask me, it's because a lot a parents have very little respect for teachers and the ultimate weapon of speaking to mum is no longer the ultimate weapon. As for far too many you speak to her and she believes her child's version of events and backs them not you.
Forgot to add I'm a primary school teacher

Edited

Also I think often the way the parents speak to teachers in front of the kids is just shocking and the kids learn their parents don't respect the teachers so don't see why they should either.

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 18:20

MehGeography · 25/04/2024 18:09

If you ask me, it's because a lot a parents have very little respect for teachers and the ultimate weapon of speaking to mum is no longer the ultimate weapon. As for far too many you speak to her and she believes her child's version of events and backs them not you.
Forgot to add I'm a primary school teacher

Edited

From the data "In May 2023, 76 per cent of teachers reported that misbehaviour “stopped or interrupted teaching” in at least some lessons in the past week, up from 64 per cent in June 2022."

I don't think parental respect for teachers has decreased so markedly in a single year. The amount of cover lessons they're getting has certainly increased in that time though.

OP posts:
melonhead · 25/04/2024 18:22

Are we not allowed to mention on Mumsnet that there are loads of shit teachers too? I know there are many great teachers who put their all into their job but let's accept that plenty are just plodding away until retirement.

Why do we all remember those one or two great teachers? It's because there aren't many of them...

daffodilandtulip · 25/04/2024 18:22

Parents don't parent, and take their child's side of a teacher dares to say no to them.

The curriculum may not have changed much, but they whizz through it and then spend a year practising exam questions parrot fashion. It's created a memory test, not a love of learning. (Blaming government targets here, not teachers!)

Oneofthesurvivors · 25/04/2024 18:22

melonhead · 25/04/2024 18:22

Are we not allowed to mention on Mumsnet that there are loads of shit teachers too? I know there are many great teachers who put their all into their job but let's accept that plenty are just plodding away until retirement.

Why do we all remember those one or two great teachers? It's because there aren't many of them...

Did anyone say you weren't allowed to?

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 18:24

melonhead · 25/04/2024 18:22

Are we not allowed to mention on Mumsnet that there are loads of shit teachers too? I know there are many great teachers who put their all into their job but let's accept that plenty are just plodding away until retirement.

Why do we all remember those one or two great teachers? It's because there aren't many of them...

Teachers don't generally plod their way to retirement anymore, it's a young person's game.

But yes, headteachers are reporting that they are increasingly having to hire people that they wouldn't normally hire because the alternative is no one.

PGCE course leaders have also been told to accept pretty much everyone who applies onto PGCE courses.

We are in a beggars can't be choosers situation.

OP posts:
borisjohnsonsforgottencondom · 25/04/2024 18:27

My son had to do a language and a humanities so out of all his GCSEs he only got to pick 1 subject that he actually enjoyed which I thought was awful. He wasn't badly behaved but his motivation was 0%. He is now at college doing public services and thriving. That really didn't help a lot of the already bored, struggling kids.

TheBitterBoy · 25/04/2024 18:27

OP, I so agree with your post. DS is 16, just about to sit GCSEs and has always been a mid level student and a mostly good boy. He has had it with school. Cover lessons are so frequent, the disruption it causes to their learning, the more troublesome kids take full advantage. DS has seen the lack of consequences for serious bad behaviour, so now sees minor bad behaviour (lateness mainly) as no big deal. The curriculum is so dry and dull, since covid and cost of living there have been no day trips, no residentials, and the impact of losing their first year or so of secondary school to home learning has really affected them socially. It makes me sad when I think back to how much he loved school at primary, and how much fun he had. I totally hear you about the staffing pressures.

lougher · 25/04/2024 18:29

The government has been undermining the public's confidence in teachers and other services for years, this feeds through. We now live in a blame culture.
I met with a parent yesterday to discuss poor behaviour, I was told it is my fault as I bully their child and pick on them for no reason! Some parents are keen to deflect, sometimes for complex reasons- poor mental health, overwhelmed by the demand of modern life, embarrassment that they are not coping, refusal to accept additional needs in a child.
There is a reason why there are more teachers no longer in the profession than in the classroom! This government has no intention of addressing the reasons why and the damage they have done will take time to rectify.

Charlie2121 · 25/04/2024 18:40

Poor parenting creates poorly behaved children. Lack of discipline and an out of control excuse culture means nobody thinks they are accountable for any wrongdoing whether that be pupils or parents.

This creates a toxic mix in schools which does little to attract or retain the better teachers who would prefer to be educating rather than managing their pupils.

It is the main reason why I have chosen private school for my DS as I don’t want him having to suffer in such a negative environment. I feel sorry for those who feel the same but can’t afford PS.

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 18:41

We currently appear to be in a death spiral - poor behaviour causes teachers to leave and people not sign up to teach. Lack of teachers, and poor quality of teachers increases poor behaviour. Schools then have to deal with complaints from parents who are rightly annoyed with lack of teachers and poor quality teachers which makes engagement with parents more difficult.

OP posts:
Meadowfinch · 25/04/2024 18:47

When my ds reached 11, we were offered a place at a failing state comp, that even Ofsted said wasn't safe. That the staff didn't know who was on site, or what the 6th form were up to at any point. Bullying and sexual interaction between pupils was common.

My ds was a small August born child. If I hadn't intervened, he would have gone from a tiny (120 pupil) rural primary school to a completely out of control 1600 person comprehensive as the smallest and youngest pupil..

Instead, I put him up for a scholarship to a local independent, because....
There are no disruptive pupils
There is very little bullying and any persistent bullies are removed.
Qualified teachers stay there for years
Teachers are respected & supported
Pastoral care is outstanding
Class sizes are 25ish so not tiny
Parents are committed and involved

Ds's happy. confident, doing well. I'll need to work an extra 10 years to pay for it but it's been worth every penny.

There should be some way to deliver that without the huge price tag. But it needs parents to put in the effort, and too many don't.

ReDoTheProphecy · 25/04/2024 18:49

I left teaching just before the pandemic and behaviour was on the slide. I felt it was due to the shift in behaviour policies which were badly implemented by SLT - the idea of restorative conversations replacing sanctions. It was paving the way for a decline only exacerbated by the erosion of support for SEN and mental health, the stranglehold of social media, a perfect storm being created that was then amplified by lockdowns. I'm not saying that positive behaviour policies are a bad idea, but the schools I worked in interpreted it as meaning students were never held accountable for their behaviour or experienced any kind of consequence for it.

imnotthatkindofmum · 25/04/2024 18:50

As a teacher I think that one of the overriding issues is that the curriculum is not fit for purpose. So many kids can't access the curriculum, we can't accommodate all of the needs. As a secondary teacher I find my exam syllabus is completely overwhelming for many kids, way too much content which relives time for cognitive development.

Kids are fed up with feeling like they can't do the work.

Add poor mental health care and lack of places in alternative provisions and it's a recipe for low motivation and distraction.

LeviOsaNotLeviosaa · 25/04/2024 18:51

There is no single answer to account for this, as I suspect you know, @noblegiraffethough "Tories" would come close.

I can see all sides. As a teacher, "low-level" disruption is just constant and so frustrating. They don't care about consequences.

As a parent, DS1 (y11) is generally no bother, except in one lesson. It was a GCSE he really wanted to take, but it's taught by a non-specialist who bores him and gets content utterly wrong in equal measure. He, quite simply, has lost all respect for her (disparaging comments about people with ASD for example, got his back up) and behaves like a twat to be honest. I am constantly on at him to just have some respect, and I of course reinforce all sanctions, but internally I am fuming she is teaching the subject. It's wasted time. I'm fuming for her, not with her, to be clear. I highly doubt she wants to be teaching a subject she didn't train for, to kids who don't want to be there.

The whole system needs fixing, and it's going to take a long time.

DJSteves · 25/04/2024 18:51

Last year, after 24 years in UK Secondary education I made the move to teach internationally. The difference is unbelievable. I teach in a true international school with lovely well mannered students. It's been a revelation

melonhead · 25/04/2024 18:53

LeviOsaNotLeviosaa · 25/04/2024 18:51

There is no single answer to account for this, as I suspect you know, @noblegiraffethough "Tories" would come close.

I can see all sides. As a teacher, "low-level" disruption is just constant and so frustrating. They don't care about consequences.

As a parent, DS1 (y11) is generally no bother, except in one lesson. It was a GCSE he really wanted to take, but it's taught by a non-specialist who bores him and gets content utterly wrong in equal measure. He, quite simply, has lost all respect for her (disparaging comments about people with ASD for example, got his back up) and behaves like a twat to be honest. I am constantly on at him to just have some respect, and I of course reinforce all sanctions, but internally I am fuming she is teaching the subject. It's wasted time. I'm fuming for her, not with her, to be clear. I highly doubt she wants to be teaching a subject she didn't train for, to kids who don't want to be there.

The whole system needs fixing, and it's going to take a long time.

Edited

But your son did want to be there! It’s only her rubbish teaching that’s put him off.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 25/04/2024 18:59

Are we not allowed to mention on Mumsnet that there are loads of shit teachers too?

Why would you not be allowed to mention it? Of course there are shit teachers. There are shit people in any job. Teaching isn't immune from shitness. But, as @noblegiraffe says, when there is a massive teacher shortage, schools take the teachers they can get. Beggars can't be choosers.

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