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Behaviour going to shit in schools

278 replies

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 17:53

Government data shows that on average schools are losing about a quarter of lesson time to poor behaviour.

"In May 2023, 76 per cent of teachers reported that misbehaviour “stopped or interrupted teaching” in at least some lessons in the past week, up from 64 per cent in June 2022."

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-lose-a-quarter-of-lesson-time-to-poor-behaviour-dfe-survey/

There needs to be discussion about what is going on. As well as poor behaviour in classrooms increasing, school attendance is a massive problem, and internal truancy where kids are in school but not attending lessons is also an increasing issue.

Covid is pointed to as 'breaking the social contract between schools and families' as a reason for increasing absence. One reason for increasing absence is an increase in term-time holidays. I'm not so sure that this is a result of covid and social contracts so much as the cost of living crisis and the extortionate price of holidays out of term time. Increased sickness absence is also an issue. One wonders why the government hasn't clocked the connection between a recent pandemic and increased sickness absence. Their response is to tell parents to send children in when ill. I'm sure that will help.

But why are kids increasingly not behaving when in school?

Social media, lack of parental interest in education etc etc. No doubt they all contribute. But my theory is:

Schools are an increasingly shit experience for kids.

People keep talking about the curriculum being boring and an overloaded and dry curriculum is obviously an issue, but we've had the same curriculum for nearly a decade now. What has been getting worse, particularly in recent years?

Teacher recruitment and retention.
One thing that is massively important in schools for kids is consistency. Consistent teachers that they can build relationships with and rely on are a hugely underrated part of the school experience.

They are not getting that. Recruitment is a massive issue, so instead of having permanent teachers a lot of the time, they are getting supply. Maybe they stay for a few months, then it's someone new. If they're lucky, it's someone who knows the subject. If they're unlucky, it's a different person every day who knows nothing. If they're really unlucky (as in the case with some of my sixth form) it's no one.

Kids see cover lessons in secondary as a doss. They don't expect to have to do any work in them. I see kids head to a class with a cover teacher then the whisper to go down the corridor "Yes! We've got supply!" (Don't get me wrong there are some excellent supply teachers out there, working in increasingly challenging circumstances. But we are also in the situation of having to put a warm body, any warm body in front of a class).

It's happening more and more often. Parents are starting to complain about the amount of cover lessons their children are having. But there's nothing the school can do about it.

I've had kids come to my lesson and say 'miss, I've had cover all morning, I can't be expected to behave now'. And they're bouncing off the walls. Lack of routine, lack of consistency, lack of clear expectations and experience and they can't handle it.

And the amount of classrooms without teachers is increasing. Figures for teacher recruitment next year are grim. They were grim last year.

Expect more cover lessons.

Behaviour going to shit in schools
OP posts:
Cicciabella · 25/04/2024 22:02

I work in a failing state school and its awful. Assaults daily and every adult gets told to fuck off by students every day,.
Drugs are rife and there are no sanctions. Its frightening and unsafe.

If I could afford it I would send mine to independent schools.

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 22:02

Flyhigher · 25/04/2024 21:58

I guess different schools work differently.
Is your school an academy or a state school?

If a child plays up they are sent to the office to see a deputy head and then have lunch time detentions and after school. They don't stay in isolation all day.

It's a whole series of measures. Not just one.

The school did crack down hard on behaviours at lunch etc.

Academy.

I can't imagine a school being able to afford to pay a deputy head to sit in their office all day dealing with kids being sent out of lessons. And then presumably be sent back to the lesson that they were pissing about it.

We used to do lunchtime detentions for poor behaviour - you'd get kids going 'I'm fully booked this week and next, but can fit your detention in the week after'.

Behaviour is much improved with the ability to send kids out of lessons.

OP posts:
cassgate · 25/04/2024 22:02

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 21:51

Isolation does nothing but get the student angry.

It gets them out of my lesson so that the other kids have a chance to learn something.

We got rid of our isolation room a few years back. Behaviour swiftly became unmanageable and we reinstated it.

Agree. Why should the children who want to learn suffer. This is what is happening in primary schools. A class of 29 children evacuated out of class because of 1 unruly child who decides they don’t want to do maths today. Result whole class doesn’t get to do maths today because there is no where for them to go. Consequence, once calm child does a drawing to show how they were feeling this morning. Child says that they are sorry. Parents are told but that’s it. We draw a line and move on. Until the next time, and the next and the next. Rinse and repeat for the next 5-6 years of primary school and hey presto they are in year 7 doing the same thing.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 25/04/2024 22:05

Can you even imagine the effect that would have on students? The bullying that would occur because of the clothes some children wear compared to others?

Most other countries' schools manage perfectly well without uniform and regard ours as bizarre and quaint. Kids can tell from a mile off who is cool/rich and who isn't, whether they have uniform or not. Bags, phones, trainers, make-up, hair, etc, plus whatever they wear on non-uniform days, which are a total fashion parade because it's a novelty. In the European schools I've been to, it does not look like a fashion parade at all. They just wear pretty normal clothes. Jeans and t-shirts etc.

Flyhigher · 25/04/2024 22:07

What if they all did an exam that counted in year 9? Like an English test?

JojoSeawitchHasBeenABadBadGirl · 25/04/2024 22:08

DanglingMod · 25/04/2024 21:25

Thing is, those of us who teach in not-super strict schools, who don't nag kids for stupid reasons or minor infringements or uniform, are still experiencing shockingly poor behaviour that is exponentially worse than two years ago
So, that can't be the reason (or not the only one.

I do think - and am loathe to mention Covid effect but it must be part of it - that the students' literacy and independence, coming into year 7 has to be responsible for the fact they cannot access the curriculum, which leads to frustration and boredom, which leads to buggering about.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 25/04/2024 22:10

What if they all did an exam that counted in year 9? Like an English test?

Why? Not sure what problem you think that would solve tbh.

Rainydayinlondon · 25/04/2024 22:12

Isitovernow123 · 25/04/2024 21:58

Can you even imagine the effect that would have on students? The bullying that would occur because of the clothes some children wear compared to others?

i agree. Uniforms are FAR more inclusive

Flyhigher · 25/04/2024 22:13

I've seen a marked difference in year 11. It counts and they all get a bit more aware.
Just wonder if they all did something that counted they might behave a bit better.

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 22:14

I can't say that's motivating my Y11s that much.

OP posts:
TheBottomsOfMyTrousersAreRolled · 25/04/2024 22:15

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 25/04/2024 22:10

What if they all did an exam that counted in year 9? Like an English test?

Why? Not sure what problem you think that would solve tbh.

They did. Year 9 was a sats year.

Flyhigher · 25/04/2024 22:15

@DanglingMod
TikTok and Snapchat presumably.

Flyhigher · 25/04/2024 22:17

noblegiraffe · 25/04/2024 22:14

I can't say that's motivating my Y11s that much.

Ahhh. Maybe different schools have different effects.
It also coincided with the academy change.
Parents evening they called in kids for interventions and extra classes given. That seemed to change things a bit too.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 25/04/2024 22:18

Thing is, those of us who teach in not-super strict schools, who don't nag kids for stupid reasons or minor infringements or uniform, are still experiencing shockingly poor behaviour that is exponentially worse than two years ago
So, that can't be the reason (or not the only one.

No, the harsh punishments for trivial things aren't the cause of the poor behaviour, but they don't help, and they may make it a bit worse. I get the impression that schools introduce them out of sheer desperation and a dogged belief that if you hammer the little things, it will instill good habits and prevent the big things (not true imo).

In reality, schools probably hammer the little things in order to look like they're doing something, because they actually just cannot deal with the serious behaviour problems. Pointless and depressingly small wins e.g. Y8 got fewer behaviour points this week for skirt length. Woo hoo! Meanwhile kids continue to take drugs in the toilets, vandalise school propety and tell teachers to fuck off, with relative impunity.

Flyhigher · 25/04/2024 22:19

@TheBottomsOfMyTrousersAreRolled
A sats year in year 9? School didn't tell us that.

Mind you they told us nothing.

It doesn't count for the student though long term.

Flyhigher · 25/04/2024 22:21

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 25/04/2024 22:18

Thing is, those of us who teach in not-super strict schools, who don't nag kids for stupid reasons or minor infringements or uniform, are still experiencing shockingly poor behaviour that is exponentially worse than two years ago
So, that can't be the reason (or not the only one.

No, the harsh punishments for trivial things aren't the cause of the poor behaviour, but they don't help, and they may make it a bit worse. I get the impression that schools introduce them out of sheer desperation and a dogged belief that if you hammer the little things, it will instill good habits and prevent the big things (not true imo).

In reality, schools probably hammer the little things in order to look like they're doing something, because they actually just cannot deal with the serious behaviour problems. Pointless and depressingly small wins e.g. Y8 got fewer behaviour points this week for skirt length. Woo hoo! Meanwhile kids continue to take drugs in the toilets, vandalise school propety and tell teachers to fuck off, with relative impunity.

We had that. Then they expelled some kids.
Locked up the toilets. Changed a lot.

Lunches are also very rammed.
I think that's partly to keep them all in a queue and not plotting.

JojoSeawitchHasBeenABadBadGirl · 25/04/2024 22:21

*Many teachers leaving the profession. Lots of subs.

Also.. my DD school got taken over by an academy and the difference is marked in a year.

Much more emphasis on not being late to lessons. Less on earrings and nail varnish.

The isolation room closed. I cannot believe such a barbaric prison esque feature was even used. Seems like it's common in state funded schools.

School cultures are poor. Too much overcrowding.

Not enough assessment and year end exams which focuses the minds.

Also more mixed ability classes which I just think leads to more messing about.

As it's not cool to work hard.

Costs going up due to fuel and Liz Truss so less money to pay for staff and good subs.

Staff ill and leaving.*

  1. Once the subs = double-figures of day to day, it becomes a bloodbath. Decent Heads of Department either collapse classes and divide among colleagues or rotate which class gets hit for cover.
  2. Emphasis on earrings/jewellery/uniform fluctuates from school to school. DD's pays more credence to punctuality/earrings/60 denier tights than to glue sticks being hurled across the room/vaping/swearing.
  3. Behaviour Units/Emotional Support Units are important to protect learning. The first as a consequence to poor choices. The second as a Safe Space for the vulnerable.
  4. All schools I know do half termly assessments/end of unit tests and have an end of year exam. What they seem to do less of is weekly marking (other than tick and flick)/continuous assessment.
  5. No Mixed Ability = Sink Sets
timetogetlost · 25/04/2024 22:25

I have worked in six different schools over the past 15 years, all very different to each other. None had such poor behaviour as the one I went to in the 90s.

JojoSeawitchHasBeenABadBadGirl · 25/04/2024 22:25

Thehouseofmarvels · 25/04/2024 21:35

I'm a teacher and I'm interested in whether teachers can make lessons more interesting by collaborating with a teacher from another subject. At the moment I'm teaching a scheme of work that mixes art with psychology, and my year tens are really enjoying it. Looking at the influence of Sigmund Freud on Surrealism currently. I wonder if people think mixing two curriculum areas together could be generally popular?

I think collab would be interesting. I don't mean Cross-Curricular Literacy. I mean actual Team teaching.
English with History.
Geography with Science.
Business Studies with Maths.
Art with History/Psychology.

But given everything else they've got going on, nobody has time to voluntarily team teach and you've barely got the staffing to cover a normal timetable...

Starlightstarbright3 · 25/04/2024 22:26

Lots of things - services for children are all been cut, reduced funding .

when you consider the level of distress to even access Camhs , Gp’s have no ability to do a lot - except refer on for any mental health issues .

The amount of children in mainstream schools that don’t belong there - the schools can’t cope with all the Sen children . I have personally had some amazing Senco staff some absolutely useless . But without funding they are limited what they can do .

Teachers have extremely limited training on SEN’s yet are meant to be the experts in managing these children.

The curriculum is so rigid does not account for different learning styles . The super strict schools absolutely cause distress for some children .

Yellogreen · 25/04/2024 22:28

Schools have no money so they can’t even afford supply teachers and rely more on TAs. They can’t afford new resources.

I don’t know why we are paying so much bloody tax and getting less each year in return.

Yellogreen · 25/04/2024 22:30

Yes sen as well…:loads of time wasted dealing with the behaviour of children who shouldn’t be in the mainstream but funding isn’t available for the place at the specialist schools they need, failing both the sen children and the others who want to learn but can’t as they’re having to evacuate their classroom while someone smashes it up

Stopsnowing · 25/04/2024 22:37

I was all about education. It was the number one thing in my family. It got me where I am today. I have been horrified at education today. My kids are at good schools but they have to make them all jump through hoops for dull GCSEs. Curriculum is too narrow, not creative. And for what? To get to uni and
loads of debt and then terrible prospects in cost of living crisis with AI taking the knowledge jobs. Children were treated appallingly during covid. Govt running ads telling people to send kids with anxiety to school. Shame on them, shame on our society.

JojoSeawitchHasBeenABadBadGirl · 25/04/2024 22:42

I don't think uniform is all it's cracked up to be (unity/identity/pride/appearance ethic/levelling up).
I think some schools, who adopted official school hoodies rather than blazers, and joggies rather than trousers (benefit - can pretty much do P.E. at a moment's notice) were onto a good thing...casual but comfy, especially for those with sensory issues.

Uniform with logos is not levelling up.

Those who are very deprived, stand out whether in uniform or not (hair/shoes/bag/equipment/generally scruffy). Uniform doesn't make it that much more of an even playing field.

sunshine2go · 25/04/2024 22:46

Having two children in secondary school this thread is of interest to me. I often hear so much about poor behaviour in school and it shocks me. There is just zero respect for teachers these days. Y children often say the kids do not care if they have detentions, excluded from lessons. That's all the schools have powers to do, but it's the parents with zero repercussions at home or too busy believing their DC is an angel.

On this thread I have read a few posts commenting that schools are too worried about mediocre things e.g. uniform. For years UK schools were strict on these things, so why is it suddenly deemed not important? These things are the stepping stones to success. It shows respect, accountability and ability to follow the rules. Which is exactly what we aren't seeing in schools from what I have experienced. If parents find these things important and reinforce this with their children, then surely this is the very first step to better schooling for all. Respect for the school rules and the teachers that set the boundaries with full support and backing of the parents!!

Curriculum another feature I keep seeing - curriculum hasn't changed so this can't be the issue.

My main concern is culture shift- huge culture change in the UK where teaching used to be a respected profession. Now sadly the most would never dream of taking such a job.

Summary of what I feel are sticking points:

• Culture - parents lack of support for teachers
• Culture - education not so important
• Phones - huge distraction, even for us adults.
• Social media- children think it's easy to leave school and land huge paying job
• Respect- across UK is poor. No respect for elders anymore.
• Teachers Pay Vs COL
• Too many supply teachers
• Too little funding

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