Taking children of 5 and under to places they won't enjoy

[Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain]

DB and SIL have a 5 (almost 6) year old DS and a 5 month old. SIL's DP's live at the other end of the country to her so she sees them in the holidays and some weekends.

During these holidays, the DP's sometimes go away with DB, SIL and the DC but usually to cultural places, and on holidays which are often cultural. The cultual places are often for SIL and her DP's who like this a lot. Their DS often gets bored though he does like the odd museum/stately home etc. His grandmother will often complain about DS's behaviour when he's at the cultural places (he behaves very well though generally there). They sometimes but don't often factor in playtime at parks. He'd be much happier with his other grandparents (my DP's) where they take him to playparks and child friendly museums etc or with his other cousins of a similar age where they do lots of outdoor activities.

Do you think it's unfair to drag a young child around to these places when it's obvious they don't enjoy it and get bored?

Ok I’m going to guess you had some not nice replies judging by your response to me. You asked a question I answered it…. Isn’t that the point

You know what, I don't disagree that she shouldn't continue to work, but she's now 77, how much longer will she carry on doing this, until she drops? And her back is really bad, she's stooped over and only last year finally did something about getting it seen to.

As I said before, the family (not us inlaws) have spoken to her about getting private carers in maybe as they can afford these, they have a cleaner. But either her DH or her don't want private carers. I dread to think what'll happen when both of them get really old and sick. There's already pressure on their son who's married with 2 DC for him to help out where he can as he lives nearby, and he does what he can but he can't and won't be a part or full time carer for his father.

We do actually empathise with both of them (the parents in law) and offer support where we can. I think this whole scenario has been embroidered on by me and taken out of context. We are really really not bitchy. My DM just likes to talk as do I, and it was a one off comment the other day. We certainly don't spend our days bitching about them working, doing KIT days etc. I made the mistake of posting about this here and that's on me, I shouldn't expect others to think and feel the way I/my DM do.

It is. And now I'm having a nice cup of camomile tea and starting my bed time routine.

Unless the posters who don’t have children identify themselves as such, no one knows whether or not they’re parents. And on the occasions I’ve looked at a thread on the Mners Without Children board, they don’t appear to be obeying any particular set of ‘rules’ about keeping schtum (as indeed, why should they?)

You can tell quite easily, or I can, which posters have and do not have children. Call it writing style. And certain posters with more recognisable MN names you get to recognise if they have children (as you said just now).

Maybe not now the Childfree Board don't keep schtum but certainly in the past it was the case that if you did mention something 9/10 if it was criticising a parent or parenting skills and you weren't one, you'd get your arse handed to you, even Jo Frost Supernanny would've got the same treatment, trust me I've seen it here. That is why I never say nowadays if I have children outright or not but I will say I have nieces and nephews.

Agree with the above...I used to take DS to places that were less than scintillating, Auctions &c, antique fairs, he was good as gold, and would always be rewarded for good behaviour. - Kids need to learn how to share time - Time to do ''boring'' stuff, then fun stuff.

I think the answer is that your sil doesn’t have much choice. She is trying to help her parents have some nice times. Your dn is the collateral damage in some ways, his needs are not being accommodated during the trips.

you are having normal family chats about this

there are no winners in this situation Tbh. It’s just life with ageing disabled parents who don’t want to accept their limitations and didn’t have to accommodate little children as they had nannies. So they really don’t understand.

your brother needs to take the kids off to play a little, sil can accommodate her parents looking at 16th century pottery for another hour and just ignore the side eye shite.

overall dn has a great and varied life with family that love him. A little boredom won’t kill him, and if you can sneak some candyfloss in his going away luggage then it may may the whole experience a little more interesting in so many ways 😂

Jo Frost is a not-particularly-credible TV gimmick, so I fail to see why her brand of finger-wagging authoritarianism would go down well here, tbh.

Much odder is your belief that you can magically intuit whether a poster has children or not from their writing style.

I've never been to a ''Cultural'' place with DS when he was young- but museums aplenty - I don;t see them as ''culture'', rather everyday life.

It's lovely to pop in to a museum for half an hour or less to see a favourite exhibit for a child -

It's good to take kids to museums, and they always live the gift department afterwards that has a large range of children's things.

I remember being taken to a Turner exhibition as a young child, and mum showing me the painting ''The Slave Ship'' where the drowning hands of Slaves and shackles that bound them that struck horror in my heart.

Kids do benefit from being taken to museums and galleries, even if for ''bite sized'' amounts of time so as not to over face them.

I was actually having you on a bit on both points...

You can tell though sometimes, with reactions on posts, even if they don't say they have children, that within the next few replies, they'll say 'oh I have children' - admitedly this is say on posts with children misbehaving in e.g. restaurants.

Actually now you say that, DB was taken as an 8 year old to antiques fairs by a family friend and he ended up collecting penknives - the ones with mother of pearl etc handles etc. So he learned more about socialising with adults and learning about antiques and bartering.

Yes, yes, yes, you get it! You have hit the nail on the head completely.

Good idea re the candyfloss. Today I actually gave him a protein natures valley bar for the car journey home.

I agree with all you say though, everyone's trying to do the best with trying situations. I know it can't be easy and we're very lucky not to have disabled etc relatives.

Exactly that! Sadly a lot of the antique markets have gone online now, and auctions are definitely not what they were now the whole world can bid on items..Much less chance of getting a bargain!

I agree with you here, bite sized bits can sometimes work much better for kids rather than hours being dragged around a gallery or museum.

Once, a few years ago, a NDN/family friend who I looked after her almost 3 year old son occasionally, and me and DM (I was 16) decided to take him to Tate Britain, this was way before Tate Modern opened or we'd have gone there. We showed him Degas Little Ballerina statue and a few other bits, the cafe interested him as it had a sort of sculptural wooden geometric seating or a serving area/sculpture or something like that, but the one exhibit or object which really caught his eye, I think it was just outside the main entrance and was a huge metal/bronze dragon or at least it looked like a dragon! He was in raptures about that, we actually had to tear him away from it, but we got a photo taken with him and his dragon to show his parents.

We then did a boat trip down the Thames which he loved too. I think he lasted in total under an hour but including lunch in the cafe.

For me and DB, which I'm sure I've mentioned in the past, we used to go to galleries, museums, castles, stately homes a lot as kids, the Serpentine was our favourite as it was near our other favourite Science and National History Museum but it also had a playground area just outside, where we played and it had a nice 70's geometrical architect designed cafe (now sadly gone). We were sort of expected though to know our art. Another fave place was Bodiam Castle as this was near a farmhouse we used to stay at on holidays, we used to run around pretending to be knights and princesses and spot the goldfish in the moats from the turret slit windows. It was slightly disappointing growing up and finding that it wasn't all as big as when we were children!

Bermondsey has changed a lot, I think most of the antique markets there are long gone yet we used to go there a lot, it had such atmosphere.

You do get the odd auction taking place in auction rooms, there's one not far from where I live, but when I went to sell something last year, I found it all a bit snooty and I was really put off returning.

As for ''Supernanny'' she doesn't take any nonsense, and for that I applaud her.

So often on her programmes, one would see kids running their parents ragged, {often multiple kids, rather than one} and Frost seemed to regain order, reining in the tantrums.

There are other programmes ''The World's strictest parents'' and the kids seem a lot happier with good boundaries.

Obviously some of it is set up , but the American horse trainer Monty Roberts also used to take on difficult teens to help on his Ranch, and with his no nonsense firm but fair way of dealing with animals and people, the kids improved markedly.

Bermondsey was great!
Auctions aren't really snooty -There is one in Nottingham that out snoots the London salerooms, and I can see easily why that one could be off putting.

The commissions they all take nowadays is eye watering. Buyer's and seller's premiums - Ouch.

It's surprising how things shrink as an adult - one remembers stuff being huge as children.

The Tate Dragon sounds lovely.

It does children good to be taken to these places, their brains are like sponges, open to new experiences.

One thing I have noticed in recent years is how exhibition sales have changed.

The Museum of Childhood, Bethnal Green used to be lovely - but when we schlepped across London on the tube to go and visit, it was awful!

All the lovely 19th Century toys had gone, and in their places were spartan displays of modern toys, maybe 10% of the exhibits were there - Wide corridors, and poorly lit.

It was a huge disappointment.

The V&A is always a delight -

Pollocks toy museum is closed too..That used to be lovely.

The rocking horse was my favourite item there, his legs polished by thousands of children reaching up to stroke him.

{Me included!}

No need to self flagellate, I thought it your post before this one covered it all TBF.

My 3 year old loves cultural things. She often asks to get to the mooseum (as she calls it) or the art gallery. We’ve been on lots of city breaks and always do museums, historical sites, cathedrals etc. she hasn’t done theme parks etc. so she’s not pining for them. We do do parks/boat trips/countryside/swimming etc. too much she doesn’t really show a preference for that sort of thing over something “cultural”. A beach holiday with little kids does not appeal, a day is fine but I really don’t want to be unable to take my eyes off them for a second so they don’t fall in the sea/pool or eat sand or something.

Honestly I think to an extent little kids learn what’s fun. If you find something interesting and explain it in a kid friendly way they will generally be interested. And cultural things are often in big interesting buildings/ open spaces where they can potter around safely. It may be a bit harder once they are 8+ but I think at 5 they’ll still be pretty interested in just doing something with you, whatever it is.

Not just me saying this though, my DM says it.

But how is this even coming up in conversation so much?

Maybe you and your mum need to spend a little less time criticising the child's other grandmother and let them enjoy their time with their grandson in their own way.

Why are you both so obsessed with what the child is doing when they aren't with you? I can't imagine my mum being remotely upset or bothered about what dd was doing with her other grandmother! I doubt it crossed her mind, especially as none of it was cruel or,dangerous.

Nothing you have posted sounds particularly problematic.
All of the places, it seems, have some child friendly activities even if it's not all the time everywhere.
Children benefit massively when activities are balanced and cover new places, and they benefit from not always having everything tailored to their individual needs - they learn that other people's needs and wants are as important as theirs.

And this isn't even something that is happening that much by the sounds of it,

Even if it was every single holiday for the whole holidays - it would be 12 weeks of the year, out of 52. And you've already said that it's not all of those times, and that there are some child friendly activities at many of these places. So it's going to be a small percentage of his time spent doing them anyway.

That is so out of place!

Are you really saying that disabled parents can’t look after their dcs properly? That ‘there is no winner there’ because lets say one parent can’t do outdoorsy activity with a 6yo???
Do you really think it’s ok to judge if someone should carry on working or not when you have no idea of what their situation is (and you dont. I don’t think the OP knows either)? And then decide they are ‘no really good’ grand parents for doing something you dont deem ok?

Fuck the level of ableism on here can be astonishing.

@ComeOnNowNotThisTime

im really sorry my post was not meant to be ableist in any way.

Ops sil is taking her mum and dad on holiday. Sil wants them to have a great time but it doesn’t always marry up with what a 5yo wants to do. The DGP’s think the 5yo wants to spend all day doing stuff they enjoy and think he should be perfectly entertained. the reality is he’s not . DGP don’t understand as they didn’t do similar stuff with their own kids as they had a nanny.

sil can’t please everyone and so it’s up to the dad to insist DS gets some time out to let off steam and so he’s happy doing what for a 5yo is boring the rest of the time.

its difficult for sil as she’s caught in the middle.

in all honesty the disability isn’t the issue, other than sil wants grandma especially to feel supported as she has a lot on her plate supporting her husband.

I did not say that disabled parents cannot look after their kids properly. Where did I actually say that?

I did say that the grandma as she has a very bad back, finds it hard to walk (but she can still walk and help care for her DH), she is not disabled though. Her DH is and yes, he cannot do a lot due to him being a paraplegic.

I never said they were no good grandparents either. They are perfectly good grandparents when they visit them but then DNephew is with his cousins a lot of the time so his behaviour isn't as bad. But when you hear the supposedly loving and caring grandma say nasty and cruel things to and about her grandson within earshot of the whole family (we were all visiting SIL in hospital) and handling him really roughly like shoving and pushing him hard, again in front of you, you do begin to wonder. He's 5 ffs. If he's with me alone and he won't listen to me, sometimes I'm tempted to grab him hard but I don't because, he's you know, 5. And yes, he's challenging as a lot of 5 year olds are but I don't agree with her behaviour towards him and I hope to god she didn't hit him when they were alone together overnight and for a day.

You're right here, SIL really does feel caught in the middle here. She naturally is more like her father, not her mother and gravitates to him more, she and mother clash a lot but things have improved a lot since SIL had DC.

SIL however, would not (and DB wouldn't either, 18 months spent living near them over lockdown was enough for him) move back to live near them to help, unless the worst came to the worst and they really needed them there. It certainly wouldn't happen now.

Every year though on most holidays SIL and DB and SIL's DB and his DW and kids take it on turns to take the DP's on holiday. I did suggest to my DM last year (not to anyone else) that maybe DP's could go on holiday with a private carer by themselves once to see how that went as a trial run as it would take the stress off DB and SIL.

One of the reasons I said this was last year it was SIL's DB and his family's turn to take them on holiday. My SIL and DB and their family (but SIL was pregnant then) said they'd join them for a week and then go on to their own accommodation in a different place same country (France). SIL's DB though on at least 2 occasions went out with the godfather of his DD who was visiting from abroad and got drunk and left his father to call out for help getting to bed (he can't do this by himself), the mother couldn't help for some reason (maybe it was the way the accommodation was set out) and my DB had to go and see to him. When SIL's DB returned they either had a huge row the same night or the next day which DNephew overheard.

But also, SIL and DB have told us that SIL's DB and his DW have very different parenting styles (stricter) than they do, which don't align with theirs. But they said they probably wouldn't go on holiday again with SIL's DB and his family as they could see there would be huge rows again.

As is the case in so many of these scenarios, I really don't want to get involved but if I see DM, she naturally confides in me about DB as she's his mum. He also has his own stresses and health issues. But generally I try to stay out of this, and I never comment because I know it's not my business and DM also tries not to comment either. She did send DB's MIL a polite email about them complaining to DB about his job though and said he is a kind and caring husband and father who does a lot which he does. How many son in law's would look after their disabled father in law? My DB does this a lot and doesn't mind doing it. He's even done this alone and I've travelled to their house with him when the FIL has had to be left alone but needs caring for overnight.