Likely consequences of this benefit fraud

[beefmassaman]

I'm looking for some advice regarding this situation and if anyone knows what the likely outcome will be for my family member.

I have a family member who I saw yesterday who confided in me about their situation and seems to be in a bit of a mess emotionally over the whole thing. She's very anxious about what will happen to her. I'm going to refer to her as Marie.

Marie is divorced and has three children in full time education from that marriage. A few years after the marriage ended she met someone else and unexpectedly fell pregnant. The father (I'll refer to him as John) wanted her to keep the baby as he'd never had the opportunity before and at 43 felt it was his time. Marie agreed.

Shortly after they had agreed to have their baby Marie moved with her children in to a property owned by her boyfriend. The house had a market value of about £1250pcm and as Marie didn't want to live with John at present he offered to let it to her for a reduced sum of £950pcm. She says she insisted on paying rent so that she had autonomy over parenting her children and her own space for her family.

A few months later the baby was born and Marie began claiming Universal Credit. She says at present she gets about £1500 every four weeks. She doesn't know how much is for housing.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, John has practically moved himself in. I've heard her say to him before that he's not permitted to stay over at her house because the DWP would come down on her. It's fallen on deaf ears and I think she's buried her head in the sand over the whole thing.

She showed me her online banking and she pays ALL of the bills and utilities and 70% of the food she estimates, but as John has now moved himself in she's reduced her rent payment to him to about £500 a month, occasionally paid in cash. Sometimes paid by bank transfer. But he will often send it back to her for some reason.

Now she's been asked to take part in a random entitlement check and has three problems.

1). Landlord is the father of her child, not allowed as far as we're aware.

2.) He's adamant about them being a 'family' and spending as much time with his son as possible, putting her in a position where she's breaking the law.

3). Having been asked to produce 3 months of bank statements there is virtually no record of rent paid there. Money often passes backwards and forwards between them in that John will lend her money but she showed me that she always pays it back.

Basically it all looks like what it is as far as I can see and it's not going to be good for her! Anyone know what will happen to her next?

She will definitely be ordered to pay it all back, and is likely to receive a fine at the absolute minimim. It's fraud at the end of the day, however you dress it up.

She says the tenancy agreement is for £950pcm. She pays about £500 and John covers the rest as his contribution to his child for maintenance.
He officially has another address where he sleeps maybe twice a week and when all his possessions are. But spends the rest of his time knocking about at her house playing Disney Dad.
He works full time and has a good job.

With UC, when you log in online there is a breakdown of exactly what you are getting. So the element for you, child element, reduction for earnings and pivotal on this instance, how much is for rent. So, claiming she didn't know how much of the UC was rent is nonsense.

Thank you. I will ask her to have a look. When I asked yesterday she claimed not to know.

So, he is getting housing benefit for a house he owns, probably using it to pay his mortgage. Major fraud.

He's not living there if all the bills are at another address

He does have to pay for his child so she needs to explain that he gives her £450 a month maintenance and for 'ease of use' deducts it from her rent

And not deviate from the above

It may still not fly though

She needs to come clean.

I think she was on really shakey ground renting a house from her partner /father of her child anyway. Whether or not you have a couples claim isn’t dependent on how many nights a bloke stays over it’s whether you function as a unit rather than separately.

It would be very hard to argue that she is independent of her boyfriend whilst living in his house.

And really- why should the tax payer fund her rent just so she can “feel” independent when her boyfriend/child’s father is able and willing to provide her housing?

if she comes clean and explains how she’s made an error and asks to setup a payment r plan they will back date what she owes them and she can start paying it off very slowly. She might get a criminal record but it will lessen chances if she is honest and open rather than trying to hide it and make dwp spend time and money investigating.

I'm not sure. I know he doesn't and has never claimed benefits. He owns two properties. His and 'Marie's'

Now she's been asked to take part in a random entitlement check

I doubt the check is random. I suspect they know exactly what she's been doing. As PP have said it's a serious case of fraud and there's a good chance the consequences will be a lot more than just paying it back.

1)Do hmrc know that he is the youngest child's father?
2) is anything of John's registered to Marie's address.

So what's this man had to say now this is happening?

i reckon he’s self employed

and pays a fraction of tax due

this investigation in to her will trigger an investigation into him

your advice? “brace yourself!!”

She can just get John to declare she pays rent fully/partly in cash sometimes. Job done.

I don't really think you can call spending 5 days out of 7 with your son, spending time with him and supporting his household to the tune of thousands "playing Disney Dad".

I think you should stop slating her partner. She did this herself. And the partner may be in your life for the rest of your life, so don't make him out to be some big enemy, when it doesn't sound like he is, and you may have to live with him for a long time yet.

what a shocker

she “claimed not to know”

she’s spinning you the same yarn as DWP

Don’t do this. Whether or not he legally lives there doesn’t matter. It’s whether they are functionally living together.

If she claims he’s not living there and they present evidence he is (they actually do surveillance sometimes!) then she will be in real deep shit.

Again, not sure. I will have to check with her. But she said that the landlord's name and address and the youngest child's father's name and address are exactly the same. I don't know if she's actually said 'my landlord is the father of my child'

They don't get on very well these days and I know they don't share a bed when he stays over. He had nothing registered at her address because he has his 'own' address. I think.

He is not self employed as far as I'm aware but I hope a bit of shit is coming his way.

She would also know how much she is getting for housing as she is the one that has to tell them her housing costs, they don't make up a random amount

As pp said, it's a layered complex fraud covering more than one element, the landlord rent part and if she's declared she's single and he's living there more often than not, that's another prosecution for living together. His income would also effect her claim and she may have been entitled to no uc at all. The way that sounds from a ££ valueperspective, she's definitely going to be prosecuted.

The best thing she can do is be honest. If he has another address it can be a grey area. I had similar before I was married and I spoke to them about it.
However my boyfriend was not my children's father or landlord. That's where the problem lies.

Is the £500 rent reduction in lieu of maintenance or does he pay that separately?

My DCs fathers name and address aren't on my UC claim so how would they know that it's the same as her landlord?

1. Your family member knows exactly how much she's getting for rent, and how much she's declared as her rent amount. It's listed every month on the statement.

1. She could easily have updated her claim.

1. She needs to be completely honest.

She's been very silly. She won't be the first or last.

You need to tell her not to play the fool with them and go all oh poor little me just didn't understand...
Because that will go down like a cup of cold sick.

She needs to take full responsibility for her decision to commit benefit fraud and go from there.

There's no grey area. He's staying with her for 5 out of 7 days.

It'll be coming more at her than him so be careful what you wish for