Likely consequences of this benefit fraud

[beefmassaman]

I'm looking for some advice regarding this situation and if anyone knows what the likely outcome will be for my family member.

I have a family member who I saw yesterday who confided in me about their situation and seems to be in a bit of a mess emotionally over the whole thing. She's very anxious about what will happen to her. I'm going to refer to her as Marie.

Marie is divorced and has three children in full time education from that marriage. A few years after the marriage ended she met someone else and unexpectedly fell pregnant. The father (I'll refer to him as John) wanted her to keep the baby as he'd never had the opportunity before and at 43 felt it was his time. Marie agreed.

Shortly after they had agreed to have their baby Marie moved with her children in to a property owned by her boyfriend. The house had a market value of about £1250pcm and as Marie didn't want to live with John at present he offered to let it to her for a reduced sum of £950pcm. She says she insisted on paying rent so that she had autonomy over parenting her children and her own space for her family.

A few months later the baby was born and Marie began claiming Universal Credit. She says at present she gets about £1500 every four weeks. She doesn't know how much is for housing.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, John has practically moved himself in. I've heard her say to him before that he's not permitted to stay over at her house because the DWP would come down on her. It's fallen on deaf ears and I think she's buried her head in the sand over the whole thing.

She showed me her online banking and she pays ALL of the bills and utilities and 70% of the food she estimates, but as John has now moved himself in she's reduced her rent payment to him to about £500 a month, occasionally paid in cash. Sometimes paid by bank transfer. But he will often send it back to her for some reason.

Now she's been asked to take part in a random entitlement check and has three problems.

1). Landlord is the father of her child, not allowed as far as we're aware.

2.) He's adamant about them being a 'family' and spending as much time with his son as possible, putting her in a position where she's breaking the law.

3). Having been asked to produce 3 months of bank statements there is virtually no record of rent paid there. Money often passes backwards and forwards between them in that John will lend her money but she showed me that she always pays it back.

Basically it all looks like what it is as far as I can see and it's not going to be good for her! Anyone know what will happen to her next?

Why do you think his getting benefit for a house he owns & rents is fraud, it isn't, OP has already said there's a tenancy agreement in place. He can let a house out to an ex partner.

It's when & whether they've always been together or when they did get back together. The issue is that when he started sending the rent back to her, this has blurred the boundaries.

'is the father on the birth certificate and has she ever sent in a copy of the birth certificate to the DWP? Just thinking that there will likely be a name match to the landlord if so.'

Quote fail. The dwp can get that information without her supplying it

I know- just wondering how easy and obvious it was to spot.

@Whyforartthou because I've been on MN long enough to know that if there's a sniff of benefits fraud posters go insane falling over themselves to tell you you're fucked.

So just adding the balance that if you think you may have committed fraud or any other crime, the absolute last thing you do is admit to it without getting legal advice.
This is a basic right in our society and is there as a safeguard.

It's on the other side to prove what's happened.
I have no idea how successful HMRC or DWP are at prosecuting benefit fraud. I know the government are not very good at prosecuting the major tax-dodgers/de-frauders - presumably because they lawyer up & don't make themselves an easy catch.

Fair enough :)

'I have no idea how successful hmrc or dwp are at prosecuting benefit fraud'

I do. That's all I can say about that, so anything I've written is in the best faith for the op

I'm willing to bet John is well aware that Marie has been claiming the UC housing element to pay his mortgage her rent with.

someone I am very close to did similar in the days of housing benefit. They had to pay the money back, they were prosecuted and were put on a curfew for 6 months. Lucky for them it was winter and knee boots were in fashion so few people actually knew.

It doesn’t matter if he was aware. He didn’t file the claim. He won’t have any consequences, won’t be prosecuted and won’t have to pay anything back.

@Itslegitimatesalvage I didn't say he would face any consequences for it. I just said he was likely in on the whole thing.

I hope “Marie” is made an example of.

However you dress it up, she was already committing fraud claiming housing elements of UC when the landlord has a personal interest. If he owns a house with that level of monthly rental, he can afford to support his child’s mother. The rest is just growth of her greed that has cost the tax payer.

I really hope her consequence is more than ‘just paying it back’.

“Marie” is hoping she gets a fine. I mean usually from what I know custodial sentences aren’t given to mothers unless they’ve got previous convictions.

OP knows an awful lot about her “friend
Marie” though. Does “Marie” indeed have a conscience? Doubtful.

Extremely unlikely she will be locked up. There is a constant push to keep women out of prison and as she has children, especially a baby, that would be an absolute last resort. You can get hefty sentences but this really is at the lower end of the scale for benefit fraud. There’s a lot of scaremongering on this thread and I can only imagine it’s due to lack of exposure to many cases like this. You don’t say whether she’s actually under investigation or if she is, what stage she’s at. It goes without saying that if is going to be interviewed she MUST get herself a solicitor.
You can look at the sentencing guidelines here. When you look at the harm and culpability factors she is at the lower end of the scale.
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/outlines/benefit-fraud/

I did think the same! A lot of knowledge about “Marie”’

I’m not sure it warrants a custodial sentence but there surely should be more deterrent than only paying back what you stole if caught. I would hope for a fine and DBS offence listed on top of what was stolen.

Most don’t pay it back.

They will be told they have to pay huge sums back but the payment plan has to be reasonable so it ends up they’ll pay £10 a month till they die having only paid back £10k of a £100k fraud bill.

the punishment is the criminal record for most.

99% certain this won’t result in custodial sentence

From Shelter -

Renting from a former partner
You can get universal credit to help with renting from a former partner as long as it's a genuine agreement.
You cannot claim housing benefit to pay a former partner if either:

• you used to live as a couple in the home you now rent
• you have a child together who is under 16 and lives with you

As “Marie” has a child who is under 16, with her “former” partner, she cannot claim UC to help with rent. If any part of her UC claim relates to rent, she is committing benefit fraud @Nextdoor55 .

She sounds very easily led - only really had the baby to appease John - and possibly vulnerable. Is there some coercive control going on here?

Is it even her former partner? I read it as she got pregnant and started dating boyfriend. Then moved into a house he owned that he rented to her, still dating. Then he started staying so frequently he’s all but legally moved in. People are getting very hung up about whether he has technically moved in but it won’t matter. Renting of her boyfriend who she has a child with is fraud in itself.

It does make a difference as to whether it's a single or a joint claim. The rent costs may not be treated as fraud, people often don't declare a change in circumstances and end up with a large overpayment that is treated purely as an overpayment.
This thread is full of judgement but the OP would be better getting informed advice from a benefits expert.

From what you say she knew the rules ( not that ignorance is an excuse) and carried on claiming regardless. The local authorities / DWP know all of the scams , I doubt her story will wash with them She will have to pay back her overpayments and could be prosecuted for benefit fraud

“Marie” deserves to have been caught! One less benefit cheat stealing from society! 🥳

Only the first sentence is relevant for UC. The statement about a child under 16 refers to the rules for Housing Benefit, which is a different benefit from UC and has a different set of rules.

Chances are she will have to pay a surcharge for benefit fraud & they will collect the overpayment through her benefits going forward, they have a minimum amount of £7.50 a week. I've been paying an overpayment back that wasn't my fault & I pay £11 a week out of my benefits. She won't go to prison unless it is a massive amount. The best thing she can do is come clean if they question it, if the man has another address where he pays council tax & bills, they probably won't have evidence.

"Marie" doesn't really sound like the wisest.

Especially if she thinks this is random and that the investigators don't know 99% of it already.

It seems to be a very clear cut case of fraud on multiple counts with no mitigating factors.