Likely consequences of this benefit fraud

[beefmassaman]

I'm looking for some advice regarding this situation and if anyone knows what the likely outcome will be for my family member.

I have a family member who I saw yesterday who confided in me about their situation and seems to be in a bit of a mess emotionally over the whole thing. She's very anxious about what will happen to her. I'm going to refer to her as Marie.

Marie is divorced and has three children in full time education from that marriage. A few years after the marriage ended she met someone else and unexpectedly fell pregnant. The father (I'll refer to him as John) wanted her to keep the baby as he'd never had the opportunity before and at 43 felt it was his time. Marie agreed.

Shortly after they had agreed to have their baby Marie moved with her children in to a property owned by her boyfriend. The house had a market value of about £1250pcm and as Marie didn't want to live with John at present he offered to let it to her for a reduced sum of £950pcm. She says she insisted on paying rent so that she had autonomy over parenting her children and her own space for her family.

A few months later the baby was born and Marie began claiming Universal Credit. She says at present she gets about £1500 every four weeks. She doesn't know how much is for housing.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, John has practically moved himself in. I've heard her say to him before that he's not permitted to stay over at her house because the DWP would come down on her. It's fallen on deaf ears and I think she's buried her head in the sand over the whole thing.

She showed me her online banking and she pays ALL of the bills and utilities and 70% of the food she estimates, but as John has now moved himself in she's reduced her rent payment to him to about £500 a month, occasionally paid in cash. Sometimes paid by bank transfer. But he will often send it back to her for some reason.

Now she's been asked to take part in a random entitlement check and has three problems.

1). Landlord is the father of her child, not allowed as far as we're aware.

2.) He's adamant about them being a 'family' and spending as much time with his son as possible, putting her in a position where she's breaking the law.

3). Having been asked to produce 3 months of bank statements there is virtually no record of rent paid there. Money often passes backwards and forwards between them in that John will lend her money but she showed me that she always pays it back.

Basically it all looks like what it is as far as I can see and it's not going to be good for her! Anyone know what will happen to her next?

Random entitlement check? I highly doubt it. They are far too busy for that. I had a recent check for council tax single person discount - almost definitely because my adult child had left uni and they didn't know where he was so decided that meant he was with me. He was living in another city but they wanted his address to check it out. And on another occasion when on tax credits - it didn't say why but I believe it was because a mobile phone was still registered at my address although that person was no longer living there. All fine. Because I live alone.

If 'Marie' is renting the house then she should have a clear agreement and direct debit for the rent, surely. Why does she sometimes pay in cash? It looks wishy washy to say the least. You're allowed to have people to stay over but this looks like a domestic situation, like the person I knew back in the 80s who pretended to be separated for benefits purposes - he 'moved out' into his own place but they were always together.

I mean, these people aren't stupid. Marie should have phoned for advice before renting this house. Being careless or ignorant isn't an excuse and DWP won't care about the reasons.

Used to work in housing benefits. She has committed benefit fraud as housing benefit cannot be paid if the landlord is the parent of a child under 16 yrs old, whether the landlord is resident in the property or not. The old housing benefit forms used to ask this question, but not sure if it is the same for universal credit. Am sorry OP, but she will have to pay the full amount back, and hefty fine on top. She would only receive a prison sentence if prosecution was seen to be in the public interest ie to discourage fraud of this type.

If they're 'not living together as a couple' why does he go and stay there?

Also, aside from the trouble she will be in, is he declaring his rental income on the property to HMRC? He could also be in trouble from tax fraud.

But if he has another house and everything is registered there they will not be able to prove he was living there.
Stop scaring her and giving bad advice !

She sounds like a total leach. No job, just benefits and dodgy dealing. She took money for her ‘rent’ and kept it! Money she didn’t even earn, just drained from people who do.

I'm secure in my knowledge enough to not defend my posts as scaring her and giving her bad advice, perhaps you should realise that someone may actually know what they're talking about and that's why they've said it. Rare on the Internet, I know. The truth is scary when you commit a crime

5 days out of 7 IS living there

So she was happy taking the money until she got caught? If he was moving in then she should have told dwp and had a proper conversation with her DP. Simple. Too many people thinking it is ok to take advantage of the system.

A relative of mine thought the same. Dwp had proof he was staying so many nights, photos and everything.
She ended up in court

But he is the landlord of the property, and his child is living there with his partner. Whether he lives there or not is irrelevant. The DWP will be considering this under 'contrived tenancy' regulations.

I suspect the same will be true in this situation. The "random" interview is anything but random. They will already know about the fraud, and this is just an opportunity for Marie to admit to it.

It’s going to be a fraud investigation.

She’s looking at an overpayment from potentially the beginning of claim if they deem it as a contrived tenancy or from when he moved in to close down and refer overpayment as she isn’t single. Probably a admin penalty. This is best case.

Id not be surprised if they prosecute.

Nothing will happen to him. He hasn’t committed benefit fraud. His name isn’t on the claim. This will all come down on her. And prison is a very real possibility; that doesn’t mean she will go to prison but it is a very real prospect as benefit fraud is taken very seriously and they do crack down hard. So, she needs to be prepared for that.

I would suggest that she engage a solicitor who specialises in fraud before she has to respond to the check. Go over everything and they will advise on how to disclose what she has done, and to offer repayment etc. She needs legal advice as it’s a clear cut case of fraud here. Even if he hasn’t “move in,” her rent has been reduced and she didn’t update the claim. That’s bad enough. She has been claiming the full amount allowed for her rent of £950 when her rent was reduced to £500 (the child maintenance excuse won’t fly). It is made worse by the fact that he is living there as her claim for the rent was for a single parent, not a joint claim. And it’s made even worse because he owns the property; they wouldn’t be able to make a joint claim and include rent because the rent is paid to him. So she shouldn’t have been claiming anything in rent. Also sounds like he has plenty of assets and a good job, so they probably don’t qualify for any UC. Her whole claim is fraudulent. It’s serious. Tell her to call round solicitors tomorrow morning. Her partner can pay; it sound slope he has the money.

Benefit fraud is stealing from the taxpayer. She needs to admit what she has done and take responsibility for her actions.

Nothing will happen to him. He hasn’t committed benefit fraud. His name isn’t on the claim.

i would wager he is self employed and doesn’t declare a fraction of his true income

hopefully this will trigger an investigation in to him by HMRC

Exactly John's certainly not daft is he.

She’ll be prosecuted worse case scenario, highly unlikely to face prison, maybe a fine or placed on probation and no, it shouldn’t get into the papers either. I know this because a friend of a friend did this a few years ago. Yes, she got gossiped about and a bit of verbal abuse but most people are concerned about themselves at the end of the day.

What are you talking about? The OP has already says he is employed with a good wage, not self employed. There isn’t anything to trigger. Stop making up scenarios to salivate over. This is someone’s real life and it is already very serious. No need for fiction to be added.

So basically she's claiming to live alone with her DC and pay rent to a LL but in reality she's been living with her partner and father of her youngest DC and claiming money she's not entitled too. If he wants them to be a proper family he should support them. She won't go to prison because they never send mother's with DC to prison no matter how much they commit fraud like this person has. She should be banned from claiming in future until she's paid back money she got by fraud but she'll likely just get told off with a limited penalty.

She’s silly as if she had just accepted money off him as child maintenance she would have been better off as it’s disregarded and should have updated her claim which he could have offset.

One of my neighbours went to prison for 18 months for similar.

More lies and fraud.🤷

Ha I missed that! And that poster accused me of giving bad advice 😂😂 hilarious

If he stays there more nights than he stays in his other property they are in an ongoing relationship and living together. She is not eligible for benefits yet claims a lot of them.

@Terfosaurus If they are suspicious they are likely to check the Land Registry to see who owns the property