Likely consequences of this benefit fraud

[beefmassaman]

I'm looking for some advice regarding this situation and if anyone knows what the likely outcome will be for my family member.

I have a family member who I saw yesterday who confided in me about their situation and seems to be in a bit of a mess emotionally over the whole thing. She's very anxious about what will happen to her. I'm going to refer to her as Marie.

Marie is divorced and has three children in full time education from that marriage. A few years after the marriage ended she met someone else and unexpectedly fell pregnant. The father (I'll refer to him as John) wanted her to keep the baby as he'd never had the opportunity before and at 43 felt it was his time. Marie agreed.

Shortly after they had agreed to have their baby Marie moved with her children in to a property owned by her boyfriend. The house had a market value of about £1250pcm and as Marie didn't want to live with John at present he offered to let it to her for a reduced sum of £950pcm. She says she insisted on paying rent so that she had autonomy over parenting her children and her own space for her family.

A few months later the baby was born and Marie began claiming Universal Credit. She says at present she gets about £1500 every four weeks. She doesn't know how much is for housing.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, John has practically moved himself in. I've heard her say to him before that he's not permitted to stay over at her house because the DWP would come down on her. It's fallen on deaf ears and I think she's buried her head in the sand over the whole thing.

She showed me her online banking and she pays ALL of the bills and utilities and 70% of the food she estimates, but as John has now moved himself in she's reduced her rent payment to him to about £500 a month, occasionally paid in cash. Sometimes paid by bank transfer. But he will often send it back to her for some reason.

Now she's been asked to take part in a random entitlement check and has three problems.

1). Landlord is the father of her child, not allowed as far as we're aware.

2.) He's adamant about them being a 'family' and spending as much time with his son as possible, putting her in a position where she's breaking the law.

3). Having been asked to produce 3 months of bank statements there is virtually no record of rent paid there. Money often passes backwards and forwards between them in that John will lend her money but she showed me that she always pays it back.

Basically it all looks like what it is as far as I can see and it's not going to be good for her! Anyone know what will happen to her next?

If she has a proper tenancy agreement it doesn't matter that it is a relation, it's if there isn't a tenancy agreement.

Her claim is not for HB (you can't make a new claim) it's for UC with HCE -

"Shortly after they had agreed to have their baby Marie moved with her children in to a property owned by her boyfriend. The house had a market value of about £1250pcm and as Marie didn't want to live with John at present he offered to let it to her for a reduced sum of £950pcm. She says she insisted on paying rent so that she had autonomy over parenting her children and her own space for her family.

A few months later the baby was born and Marie began claiming Universal Credit. She says at present she gets about £1500 every four weeks. She doesn't know how much is for housing."

So, he was her boyfriend at the point of her moving in. She knew she would need to claim UC when baby was born. She moved in to the property knowing full well she would need to claim benefits in order to pay for it; it's a contrived tenancy.

You can get universal credit to help with renting from a former partner as long as it's a genuine agreement.
You cannot claim housing benefit - NB this is probably poorly worded and should read "HCE" - to pay a former partner if either:

• you used to live as a couple in the home you now rent
• you have a child together who is under 16 and lives with you

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/benefit-support-for-housing-costs-when-renting-from-relatives/

she doesn't know how much is housing and yet she will have a journal online saying exactly what gets paid for what and she would have to tell universal credit every year what her rent is etc o_0 Nope, your friend knew what she was doing. this was no mistake.

they will see from bank statement that the tenancy provided to DWP at time of claim… is wholly inaccurate and has been for a very long time

she has completely misled the OP too with the nonsense of not knowing what she receives

@FunnyFinch
It was the truth. When she moved in, she was pregnant so no one living in the house was related to the landlord as the child didn’t yet exist.

She had a personal relationship with him, but not a familial one.

Likely a large overpayment and an admin penalty.

Marie and John need to just go legit. She shouldn’t even be claiming housing costs if she’s in a relationship and has a child with her landlord - non commercial and contrived. Now he’s living there too FML. Does Marie pay John £950 a month? Or is that Billy bullshit too.

Yes- this would be bullshit too!

i’m not talking about that

the tenancy agreement was for x amount

it was since slashed by £500

and then that is transferred back to the op

all this will be on her statements

but she is not going to be as successful with the DWP 😊

Im not on her side. She lied, she cheated the system and she stole. But we can still be accurate. You said she lied when she said no one was related when they moved in. That wasn’t a lie.

My cleaner has just moved to universal credit and she and her husband have three kids - she was told she could get up to £1,600 a month for housing. I would be very surprised with the number of kids your friend has that universal credit is not giving her £995 a month for the housing - so the fact she has reduced her payments to £500 some months is going to mean she has been over paid.
I don't think she is telling you the full story - as others have said she would know how much of her UC amount is for housing.

Maybe technically the child didn’t exist, but as she was pregnant with this man's baby when she moved in and 'rented' his house. For a completely different sum of money than what she's claiming for and is in the 'tenancy agreement'. They intended all along to commit this fraud.

Major fraud. She really needs to come clean but I'd also suggest some legal advice.

and a few months later

change in circumstances

but tumbleweed at every point where there has been a change in circ

OP please keep us informed! i suspect this is going to be a satisfying outcome

Was it on the UC application form or a different form that she ticked no to the question 'is anyone living in the house related to the landlord?'

I know a girl who was jailed for a few months over Christmas for benefit fraud. She was claiming as a single parent. 4 kids, all very young. Mind you, she had been in trouble before for benefit fraud. So they came down on her like a ton of bricks. That’s was a few years ago.

The idea that a woman will young children will go to prison I believe is just not true. Those saying this is a 'massive fraud' need to get out more!

Get legal advice, do not talk to the DWP before you do.

It depends very much on area. Where I live, UC will pay just over £400 a month for a 3 bed property. The market rents are £1,000-1,200.

Agree with @Whyforartthou and suspect DWP probably have everything they need already and this is a chance to admit and take the brunt without them having to progress to interview under caution, prosecution and so on. If DWP don't have anything and it's just a standard random review then it's very lucky... but there's no way of knowing and I guess that's the chance you take when you've not been honest or represented your circumstances accurately!

How do people manage? I know it’s meant to be a top up and not cover everything, but that still leaves a huge amount to pay for a low income family.

Quite. That’s why it’s galling to read on here that people believe everyone on UC is raking it in. It can work out beneficial for those in full-time work, but for unemployed single parents or those on 0 hours contracts, there can be very little left over for bills and food once rent and council tax are paid.

The story is a load of hogwash. They are living together and she's got caught out. They are thieves and she deserves everything that's coming to her. It's not government money they're stealing, it's ours. Sorry, but I have no sympathy when so many are struggling.

And opens up the question “where has the cash come from”

If it’s anything like hmrc though it’s not completely random. There is a lot of data being automatically checked and cross checked electronically and cases that are considered higher risk for whatever reason are pulled out and checked “randomly”, in lots of cases there may be nothing at all wrong. It’s not random in the sense they take a full list of all benefit claimants and randomly pick one out for no particular reason.