Likely consequences of this benefit fraud

[beefmassaman]

I'm looking for some advice regarding this situation and if anyone knows what the likely outcome will be for my family member.

I have a family member who I saw yesterday who confided in me about their situation and seems to be in a bit of a mess emotionally over the whole thing. She's very anxious about what will happen to her. I'm going to refer to her as Marie.

Marie is divorced and has three children in full time education from that marriage. A few years after the marriage ended she met someone else and unexpectedly fell pregnant. The father (I'll refer to him as John) wanted her to keep the baby as he'd never had the opportunity before and at 43 felt it was his time. Marie agreed.

Shortly after they had agreed to have their baby Marie moved with her children in to a property owned by her boyfriend. The house had a market value of about £1250pcm and as Marie didn't want to live with John at present he offered to let it to her for a reduced sum of £950pcm. She says she insisted on paying rent so that she had autonomy over parenting her children and her own space for her family.

A few months later the baby was born and Marie began claiming Universal Credit. She says at present she gets about £1500 every four weeks. She doesn't know how much is for housing.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, John has practically moved himself in. I've heard her say to him before that he's not permitted to stay over at her house because the DWP would come down on her. It's fallen on deaf ears and I think she's buried her head in the sand over the whole thing.

She showed me her online banking and she pays ALL of the bills and utilities and 70% of the food she estimates, but as John has now moved himself in she's reduced her rent payment to him to about £500 a month, occasionally paid in cash. Sometimes paid by bank transfer. But he will often send it back to her for some reason.

Now she's been asked to take part in a random entitlement check and has three problems.

1). Landlord is the father of her child, not allowed as far as we're aware.

2.) He's adamant about them being a 'family' and spending as much time with his son as possible, putting her in a position where she's breaking the law.

3). Having been asked to produce 3 months of bank statements there is virtually no record of rent paid there. Money often passes backwards and forwards between them in that John will lend her money but she showed me that she always pays it back.

Basically it all looks like what it is as far as I can see and it's not going to be good for her! Anyone know what will happen to her next?

Does she think they'll believe that? He goes and stays with her. Transfers her back the "rent" she claims in benefits. Is the father to her youngest child. They might not be having sex but everything else makes them a couple.

He is not self employed as far as I'm aware

nah, i reckon he’s up to no good.

After all his girlfriend supposedly begged him not to stay over as she’d be committing fraud, but he persisted anyway

he owns two properties that the op is aware of

he’s been living with them and reduces rental income massively but nothing updated by op to dwp and he then has been transferring the little she has transferred back to her. He is complicit

but as i say… he will have a dirty financial history id wager. and hopefully not too long before all goes tits up 🤞

Are they allowed to check the birth registry as well? I don't understand how they'd know the babies fathers address.

I think you are in the s... OP. Sorry your friend Marie. Lol.

I reckon they both knew what they were doing.

An easy way for 'John' to have the taxpayer pay the mortgage on his second home!!

My view is that it was the plan from the start!

As why would Mary leave her current home, to go live in John's house if they never planned to ever live as a couple?
She would have stayed put where she was.

Hope they are both investigated, as even though the claim is just in her name, they surely have both planned this.

I also hope 'John' gets investigated for not declaring the rental income for tax as I'm pretty sure he won't be!

this will have a domino effect i imagine

the dwp are in for a treat

He may be complicit but his name is not on the claim and he has not comities benefit fraud. The only person who ever gets convicted is the one who made the claim (almost always the woman). The man does not get convicted, even if he lived there and knew she was claiming/was complicit in it. They haven’t committed benefit fraud if they haven’t made the claim themselves so he won’t be punished. This comes down on her. That’s how it works.

I'm not in the UK but tbh sounds like she's screwed this up badly for herself and intentionally committed fraud going by the information you have given. The fact that he 'has moved himself in' is a second issue given that also makes her claim to be a single parent false, but right at the start she ticked no when the form asked if anyone in the house was related to the landlord. She fudged it presumably claiming it didn't apply to her because baby wasn't born yet, but never informed them of change of circumstances
. Is she claiming her rent is 950 a month, or the 500 she actually pays? Has she admitted to officials that she gets 450 in maintenance?
Blaming the father for causing this mess is nonsense - though the whole arrangement sounds screwy and from that point of view she would have been better renting a seperate place with no links to him - she lied from the get go from the sounds of it

She needs to get a solicitor.
Don't talk to the DWP without legal advice.

She'll likely be ok if she does the above.

OP I used to work HMRC investigations.

If she wants to avoid a custodial sentence she needs to be completely upfront from the start. Compliance and co-operation are taken into account by HMRC and the Judge.

She will, of course, have to pay back every penny she obtained under false pretences whether she goes to prison or not.

How will she be OK?

It's not child maintenance though is it, it's contributing to the household they have and run together.

And where would she be getting the cash if her only income is UC and it’s not being drawn out of her bank? Are you seriously suggesting a way in which she can perpetuate the fraud??

@beefmassaman I love the way he’s a Disney Dad for wanting to spend time with his child and working full time… let’s be real here, Marie is you are you’re in trouble.

I would suggest you contacts Citizens Advice. The benefits advice on here is often really inaccurate.
The DWP do a lot of random checks, if they suspected fraud they would already be doing an investigation.
Your sister may still be eligible to claim as a single person, the evidence is not on whether you sleep or spend time in the same property, but on whether you do so as a couple.
Claiming rent costs from a partner or ex-partner is more problematic and she should take further informed advice on this.

Does seem like “Marie” is OP. I mean how thick are some people not thinking they’ll put two and two together?!

Woah now this is bad. Be prepared for shit to hit the fan. Deep breath and just deal with it, can't do much else.

If it was a “typical “ boyfriend / ex husband relationship living together but saying they are apart

if the man lived elsewhere had a tenancy agreement paid bills bank accounts council tax bills blah blah then this is generally accepted as they don’t live together

I’m pretty sure that on universal credit you can be married but living apart and claim separately as long as you can prove you don’t live together ( weird I know )

but she is renting a house from her child’s father ( definitely not accepted ) and it would have to be a joint claim and you can’t claim for a house you own

and while you can rent from family it’s not straightforward and not easy
and you definitely can’t rent it at a cheaper rent than it would be on the open market

Now she's been asked to take part in a random entitlement check

The DWP are too busy for 'random entitlement checks' - they know exactly what's being on and have been waiting to catch her and have. They're not fucking stupid.

Best advice you can give her is be honest, suck it up, be prepared to pay it back (plus fine) and hope the best she gets is a criminal record. If a local reporter picks this up then it will get splashed around. I'd also bet that this isn't a random check at all...someone has noticed and is pissed off that she is playing the system.

Oh and UC are doing thousands of reviews at the moment
they generally want a min of 4 months bank statements paypal

they will check your credit file to see what credit bank accounts you have so they can ask you why you haven’t supplied them if you don’t

They can also check the land registry to see who owns the house

if it’s a review it’s not to much to worry about
if it’s compliance then it’s a fishing expedition something isn’t right and they are fishing for more evidence

interview under caution - same as the police
they generally have enough info to arrest you

I think she should update the claim ASAP backdated by 3 months or however long you have to tell the DWP. Explain to them that her partner is her landlord: if they're not together there's no reason as far as I'm aware that she can't rent property from him. You can rent from parents & the DWP will pay the rent, usually there's a need for a tenancy agreement.

I'd explain thanks the boundaries have become blurred because she got back together with him and now he's sending the rent back - or some of it. That she's happy to repay.
I'd get some advice from the CAB or a solicitor who deals with benefits.

Yep think you called it first!

DWP have been doing loads of random entitlement checks. Especially any claims started during Covid. My cousin works for DWP. Random checks are a whole thing; they do them all the time as standard.

Is the father on the birth certificate and has she ever sent in a copy of the birth certificate to the DWP? Just thinking that there will likely be a name match to the landlord if so.