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If you are a sahm...

293 replies

spandauballroom · 04/02/2024 18:37

Is that how you explain what you do if someone asks?
What do you say if someone asks your job?

OP posts:
Calliopespa · 05/02/2024 08:17

ilovemyspace · 04/02/2024 21:12

@NewsN It has something to do with that fact you aren’t paying taxes. Americans do both, Canadians do both. Why and Brits?

Aha. Your definition of whether or not someone's time is spent in a worthwhile manner is whether or not they're paying taxes?
And if they're not paying tax, they are not in a worthwhile job?

Is bringing up children a worthwhile job?

Americans do both, Canadians do both
As they do in Scandinavian countries - because their parental leave laws are geared to help both parents.

But also look at the research done in Scandinavian countries on the impact of child care in early years done mainly by parents vs childcare done in nurseries

Also what about sahms with investments that they pay tax on?

Bridgetjoneski · 05/02/2024 08:27

Also maybe look at the impact that sahm parents have on their children's early years. Teachers friends have all said the kids coming from homes with a sahm parents are ahead in numeracy, literacy & independent care of themselves starting school. Surely that has to be valued too.

Calliopespa · 05/02/2024 08:37

Bridgetjoneski · 05/02/2024 08:27

Also maybe look at the impact that sahm parents have on their children's early years. Teachers friends have all said the kids coming from homes with a sahm parents are ahead in numeracy, literacy & independent care of themselves starting school. Surely that has to be valued too.

I don’t disagree and I don’t doubt the research. But I think those benefits, rather than convincing people it is valuable work, actually make people more determined to say it isn’t- mostly because I think the frustration it engenders in WM is that there is an element of envy and fear that somehow it is meaning their children are coming off with fewer advantages. I’m not saying I don’t understand that to a degree ( though children of WM may benefit from greater household income); but it isn’t fair to imply sahms don’t work just because they aren’t paid for it - even if they are doing precisely what a paid child carer would be going for them. There is very little robust logic in the arguments advanced for why sahm isn’t working and I’ve come to the conclusion it’s simply because it matters to some people to say they aren’t.

OhamIreally · 05/02/2024 08:41

I don't think anyone sensible is saying being a SAHM isn't work. It's only the goady banned troll who was saying this. WOHM know it's work because we do it too, we know its value and that's why we pay others to do it when we can't, or have made a different decision.

Calliopespa · 05/02/2024 08:45

OhamIreally · 05/02/2024 08:41

I don't think anyone sensible is saying being a SAHM isn't work. It's only the goady banned troll who was saying this. WOHM know it's work because we do it too, we know its value and that's why we pay others to do it when we can't, or have made a different decision.

Agree. That’s a sensible explanation.

There was a thread the other day where posters were tying themselves in knots trying to say it isn’t work. One eventually effectively said “ well, because I’m just not going to say it is.”

Clearly it isn’t paid employment; but it is unpaid work.

SouthLondonMum22 · 05/02/2024 08:47

Bridgetjoneski · 05/02/2024 02:50

You are both very lucky to have that flexibility, many employers aren't so family friendly.
I know DH wouldn't be able to drop everything at the drop of a hat, he just can't. He's often overseas for work so it's imperative that I am there for the dc.
His job requires long hours & often involves entertaining clients so he just doesn't have the flexibility.

It wasn't an accident, it is something we planned and prioritised knowing that DC were the eventual plan.

The flexibility can be there in many roles, especially if you are willing to prioritise it and ask for it. Not all roles of course.

2mummies1baby · 05/02/2024 08:50

I used to say full-time mum, but then Mumsnet educated me that a lot of working mums find this offensive, which I do understand, so now I say SAHM (although usually add that I'm a qualified teacher and will be going back to it when my baby goes to pre-school). Don't really like the term SAHM, as it makes it sound like I never leave the house, but it seems to be the term which causes the least offence!

Bridgetjoneski · 05/02/2024 08:53

@SouthLondonMum22 I'm glad it worked out for you & your partner. I think during covid & certainly afterwards employers were very flexible as they had to be. They seem to be very rigid of late now they have the majority of staff back in the work place.
Best of luck with the rest of your pregnancy, it's such a special time😊

Bridgetjoneski · 05/02/2024 08:57

2mummies1baby · 05/02/2024 08:50

I used to say full-time mum, but then Mumsnet educated me that a lot of working mums find this offensive, which I do understand, so now I say SAHM (although usually add that I'm a qualified teacher and will be going back to it when my baby goes to pre-school). Don't really like the term SAHM, as it makes it sound like I never leave the house, but it seems to be the term which causes the least offence!

Edited

I called myself a full time mom before the dc were in school now I'm a sahm even though I'm very active with them outside school hours dropping to play dates, extracurriculars etc.. Sahm doesn't really fit me!
You can't please all the people all of the time so choose the term that suits you & your situation best.
My friends working full time call themselves "full time working parents".

Namechangenamechange321 · 05/02/2024 09:12

CuteCillian · 04/02/2024 20:43

"I'm at home with the children"

This is what isay

Disturbia81 · 05/02/2024 09:28

I just said I was a stay at home mum 🤷🏻‍♀️

I didn't class it as a job as that to me is paid work. Just a technical term. But it was hard! Very hard and very valuable.
I work now and it's so much easier than those days at home.

hearthelf · 05/02/2024 09:29

When I was expecting my first child, I contemplated the childcare options - ripped an ad for an au pair out of a local newspaper and stuck it in a jug (it is still sitting in that jug, over twenty years later and I am still on that career break!). It is the best decision I ever made!

I will not accept that I have been economically inactive - I have cared for elderly relatives and the children of other family members (allowing them to continue to make an economic contribution to society). My presence at home has, I am sure, helped to provide a more secure and sustainable family life - perhaps making family breakdown and mental ill health (which are currently rife and carry a huge socioeconomic cost) less likely.

We have a sick society and the reality is that women being routinely coerced by society expecting them to ditch their roles as fulltime mothers (psychological, cultural and economic pressure resulting from the normalisation of both parents working) has a wider impact. The opportunity to recognise and acknowledge the inevitable damage, which ignoring hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionarily differentiated roles risks, is constrained by those who have conformed to society's expectations (wishing, understandable, to justify their positions - hence the visceral defensiveness of many full time working parents.
Protest away - but perhaps you protest too much!

It has been a vicious cycle in which working mothers fed economic growth (I would argue unsustainable levels of growth) that pushed up house prices - with the net result that real incomes are worth less, even with two people working.
We took the financial hit and tightened our collective family belt. But part of my husband's taxes go to support the tax free childcare hours that working parents enjoy! Society is starting to realise that the provision of care for the young and old (who are no longer cared for by those women who ostensibly made no contribution to the economy by working in the home!!) is a very expensive business indeed!

Bridgetjoneski · 05/02/2024 09:33

@hearthelf very well said! I bet your children & family are thriving too. I don't regret my decision either. The bulk of my earnings would have had to pay someone else to take care of my kids as we don't have family around. And this person would never love, nurture or educate my children as well as me matter why society tries to convince people!

hearthelf · 05/02/2024 09:50

@Bridgetjoneski Yes, I totally agree! That was the cost benefit analysis I carried out - I would have lived in a caravan, rather than have somebody who couldn't truly love my children, look after them. This is about recognising what real value is. We have a society that does not account for every aspect of the way it functions within its economic calculations - it externailses its costs...and that is why so many aspects of society are collapsing. The rising rates of mental illness are an aspect of that - along with family breakdowns and elderly parents being stuck in expensive nursing homes.

I do understand why mothers who work outside the home are so defensive about their decisions, and sympathise with their supposed reasons for making those decisions in the first place - I consider myself lucky that I did not fall into that trap myself. Yes, my primary motive was considering what was best for my own children - so completely selfish However, I believe that wider society has benefited from my decision and those benefits should be measured as economic gains - but the way that economic value is calculated, as I have already mentioned, externalises costs - knows the price of everything and the value of nothing!

WithACatLikeTread · 05/02/2024 09:53

Why are they "supposed" reasons? If you have to pay bills, you have to pay bills.

stealthbanana · 05/02/2024 10:03

oh give over @hearthelf with your biological reductionism claptrap. Plenty of women are very happy to work and mother, and their children are happy and healthy. And around a third of British mothers are the primary breadwinner in their family.

and @Bridgetjoneski i don’t know why you keep talking about scandi families. They have c 52 weeks paid maternity/paternity leave but a chunk of it HAS to be taken by the father. And when that’s up scandi kids are put in… nursery. Scandinavian mothers find it utterly weird that British mothers stay home for years - over there it is considered to be a very very strange thing to do.

just own that you wanted to stay home with your kids without dressing it up as some decision you made for the benefit of society. You did it because you wanted to, and you married someone wealthy enough to enable it. Which is fine

to answer the OP, when people ask you what you do they are asking you what paid work you do. (Mostly it is polite conversation and they don’t even give a toss about an answer). So any variation on “I’m at home with the kids” / “I’m on a career break” / “I’m a SAHM mum” is fine. If you start rabbiting on about economic contribution and cost benefit analyses people will think you’re nuts.

hearthelf · 05/02/2024 10:04

WithACatLikeTread · 05/02/2024 09:53

Why are they "supposed" reasons? If you have to pay bills, you have to pay bills.

As I said, I cut my cloth accordingly - I didn't suggest it was easy, and society doesn't choose to make it easy. Given the cultural context, you have to be very self-assured and determined to find ways to make being a SAHP work. And that is the great pity - women are given the illusion of 'free choice' but the reality is that external conditions are skewed towards mothers having to return to work fulltime (in addition to their full time caring responsibilities). That is, in my opinion, very unfair and extremely unsustainable.

WithACatLikeTread · 05/02/2024 10:05

I am not sure also your children would thank you when they are older if you had chosen to live in a caravan because you couldn't part from them.

WithACatLikeTread · 05/02/2024 10:09

hearthelf · 05/02/2024 10:04

As I said, I cut my cloth accordingly - I didn't suggest it was easy, and society doesn't choose to make it easy. Given the cultural context, you have to be very self-assured and determined to find ways to make being a SAHP work. And that is the great pity - women are given the illusion of 'free choice' but the reality is that external conditions are skewed towards mothers having to return to work fulltime (in addition to their full time caring responsibilities). That is, in my opinion, very unfair and extremely unsustainable.

I am not sure you are aware that cost of living etc means you can no longer afford to pay all bills on one wage. Of course you can if you marry a rich man. Cutting your cloth according must be easier if you are like these numerous wives of rich men on MN.

hearthelf · 05/02/2024 10:09

WithACatLikeTread · 05/02/2024 10:05

I am not sure also your children would thank you when they are older if you had chosen to live in a caravan because you couldn't part from them.

Haha - that we will never know! But I think children's needs are very basic - and I am not sure that being in a small indoor environment would be so bad - less housework to do for a start - more time to have fun playing outside and enjoying nature (sounds ideal! 😊)

WithACatLikeTread · 05/02/2024 10:09

hearthelf · 05/02/2024 09:50

@Bridgetjoneski Yes, I totally agree! That was the cost benefit analysis I carried out - I would have lived in a caravan, rather than have somebody who couldn't truly love my children, look after them. This is about recognising what real value is. We have a society that does not account for every aspect of the way it functions within its economic calculations - it externailses its costs...and that is why so many aspects of society are collapsing. The rising rates of mental illness are an aspect of that - along with family breakdowns and elderly parents being stuck in expensive nursing homes.

I do understand why mothers who work outside the home are so defensive about their decisions, and sympathise with their supposed reasons for making those decisions in the first place - I consider myself lucky that I did not fall into that trap myself. Yes, my primary motive was considering what was best for my own children - so completely selfish However, I believe that wider society has benefited from my decision and those benefits should be measured as economic gains - but the way that economic value is calculated, as I have already mentioned, externalises costs - knows the price of everything and the value of nothing!

How have you done society a favour?

Tittyfilarious81 · 05/02/2024 10:25

To answer the original post I say if asked that I'm at home looking after the family

hearthelf · 05/02/2024 10:45

WithACatLikeTread · 05/02/2024 10:09

I am not sure you are aware that cost of living etc means you can no longer afford to pay all bills on one wage. Of course you can if you marry a rich man. Cutting your cloth according must be easier if you are like these numerous wives of rich men on MN.

I have given society umpteen well-balanced, intelligent children (most now adults) ...including two doctors. No mental health issues amongst any of us (bucking current statistical trends!). Society was not burdened by the expensive care costs of two elderly relatives. I enabled a nurse and a teacher to resume their valuable careers, by caring for their children. I have given my free time to both local schools and other community organisations. and I regularly go out to pick up the litter thrown out of the windows of fast-moving vehicles (probably thrown by people on their way to fulfill their paid work! 😂). I have kept my acquisition of material possessions to a minimum and have not been able to afford foreign holidays (thereby reducing my carbon footprint in the process, relative to higher earning double-income households!). Of course this list is not comprehensive and what is considered to be a contribution is all about judgement. In my opinion, society would ideally be structured differently, and I think it is on an unsustainable trajectory, regardless of any contributions I may or may not have made!

hearthelf · 05/02/2024 10:52

WithACatLikeTread · 05/02/2024 10:09

I am not sure you are aware that cost of living etc means you can no longer afford to pay all bills on one wage. Of course you can if you marry a rich man. Cutting your cloth according must be easier if you are like these numerous wives of rich men on MN.

If you read my previous comments fully, you will realise that I am very aware that society is making it increasingly difficult for women to make the decision to look after their own children - hence me having to give my time to support other women in my family to pursue their careers. I am not, by any means, married to a rich man, as you suggest - it has been a real financial struggle. I don't know how I would have made it work, if I was embarking on it now, rather than thirty years ago! That is why solutions would need to be found at a societal level - and I don't think that will happen! So, we await the inevitable collapse and see what happens thereafter. I am commenting on what I see, I cannot provide all the solutions!