My sister wants to be a doctor. AIBU to say no?

[onthebesttrain]

To refusing childcare help

Not only would most medics say run for the hills anyway, most medics, as in 99.999%, don't have a child when starting medical school.

My sister is 10 years younger than me and currently doing a few shifts as a HCA at the hospital. She completed her a levels and has taken the time away to think of her next steps

She got an A in Biology, Chemistry and English Lit

My mum so supportive but suffers with bad MH issues and chronic fatigue. She said she was so proud of her for choosing medicine and that 'We will support her, I've said we can all chip in'

By all she means me and her... and it's a no from me!

AIBU? This isn't the odd but of childcare. This is ridiculous. Not to mention you need to often travel or live miles away at a moments notice for placements as an FY1, FY2

My mum can't take care of my nephew for that amount of time

My mum said she's really shocked I won't even consider it. I said she isn't thinking right and my sister needs to be more sensible

Seeing them both on Sunday... and I think someone needs to give them both a dose of reality

Our dad is a man of few words and won't.

This.

She’s not being unrealistic at all.

Nursing and midwifery degrees would be much harder for a single mother because you are doing 12 hour shifts, night shifts and weekend shifts throughout the degree. Med school is much more 9-5. Lees than 9-5, in fact.

I think my DC did one night shift, one weekend shift, a handful of evenings and very early starts in 6 years of med school. Teaching and placements were in normal nursery/childminder hours. There were some opportunities to do placements further afield but there were always local placements available for students who could not travel. Both the university and the hospital where most teaching took place had on site nurseries.

As PP’s have said, your sister will get the student childcare grant for the first 4 years, then the NHS bursary childcare grant until she graduates.

If anything, she will be around for her DC more than the average working parent working full time 9-5 as she will have longer holidays in the first few years and teaching/placements aren’t all day, every day, as there is a lot of self study. She can fit that around her DC.

The foundation years will be harder.

She will be given priority in location/deanery allocation when she applies for her foundation placement so she should be able to stay where she lives for the entire 2 years. She can also opt for reduced hours and take more than 2 years to complete her FY training.

The cost of childcare is an issue for doctors (or any HCPs or any shift workers) because it is hard to find irregular childcare so you end up paying for childcare on your days off. My DC has been lucky that wraparound care at their DC’s school allows you to book as and when. They know their rota for each 4 month rotation in advance so can book ahead for each term. It also finishes a bit later than some childcare so there is leeway if they can’t leave on time.

It’s hard to find (expensive) childcare for nights, weekends, and shifts that finish after normal childcare hours but it really depends on the rotation how many there are. As the DGP in this scenario, the current 4 month rotation has 4 nights, 2 weekends, 2 weeks of late finishing shifts. Some rotations have more anti social hours, others less. I’m not saying you should be the one to babysit but it’s not a huge amount…

If your sister lives somewhere expensive (London or the SE) she will likely be eligible for UC as an single parent on an FY salary. That will be a HUGE help as she will get up to 85% of her childcare costs paid.

Specialty training will be harder but it depends how difficult on what she chooses. Maybe she’ll do a PhD, or opt for max fax and go back to university to get a dentistry degree or dermatology or move to Australia/NZ for better pay and working conditions… That’s 8-10 years away, depending on whether she intercalates and/or chooses reduced hours. Her DC will likely be at secondary school by then anyway. She might not even be a single mother in 8 years time… Or do you think the idea that she might meet someone is unrealistic too?

I'd be saying, 'Congratulations, I'm sure you'll be great. Unfortunately, I won't be able to provide any childcare, which I believe Mum has signed us all up for. I've got enough on my own plate, but I hope you work something out'.

And I'd stick to that. It's lovely for her, but her dreams and ambitions don't get to impact on your work/life balance or add to your stress. And I'm buggered if anyone else is volunteering my time and energy, even my DM!

Sorry if I've missed it but where is the kids Dad?

Well. It is possible in theory... But it would be a logistical nightmare for your sister unless she has someone who can help her.
How old is her child? If, for example, they're 10 now they'd be more or less old enough to look after themselves a lot of the time by the time she graduates. If the child is 2, that obviously wouldn't be the case.
I suspect you know this, but the uni bit would be the easier part, as the hours are more regular, there may be financial support available for a lone parent student, and some unis may have nursery places available. Plus it's relatively straightforward to negotiate placements at the more local hospital(s).
However, as you say, the FY1 and FY2 would be a nightmare - not so much because of the location of any training posts (again, the Deanery will usually consider mitigating circumstances to avoid sending people who genuinely can't manage it to the arse end of nowhere) but because of the shifts (nights, weekends, never finishing on time etc.).
A friend of mine had a baby almost immediately after graduating and then completed her FY1 and FY2 on a part time basis of sorts (no idea what the official arrangement was).
And although her husband worked away a LOT he was around AND her mum could step in too. Additionally, her husband is/was a high earner, which helped with things like very early/late drop offs at a childminder.
In short, no I don't think you're being unreasonable to say you can't provide regular childcare. You have your own life and your own family and her life doesn't get to trump yours.
Your sister needs to think long and hard about whether it would work right now.
If she really is determined to be a doctor she might be wise to wait a few years - there are plenty of people in medical school in their 30s and 40s. Sounds like she needs to give her head a serious wobble.

You make your bed and now you have to lie in it springs to mind with this.
You can’t train as a doctor with a young child without someone else doing 90% of the parenting.
That needs to be someone willing and consistent. The other parent or a very involved willing grandparent.
Not fair on the child to be shipped from pillar to post. Needs to be one main person doing the bulk of the childcare.
Although training to become a doctor is a laudable thing to do and your sister is obviously academic and capable it’s selfish to leave her child all day and not have solid reliable consistent childcare. Thinking about her wants and desires rather than the child’s most critical time.
It’s not just patching through- it’s having a solid reliable plan for years.
Why on Earth did she have a child if she wanted to train in this highly demanding career at this stage with no stable partner?

Wrong. Most medical schools ask for AAA, preferably one being biology and one being chemistry. Most medical schools don't care what the third A levels is. What they also want is a high UCAT score and some work experience.

It is clear to me @onthebesttrain that most posters haven't read your updates as to why you can't offer childcare support.

Absolutely no.
That's the father's job.

You sound jealous to me to be honest.
Fine- don’t do any childcare but, would it really kill you to offer emergency childcare when her usual childcare is unwell etc?
She’s your sister not a stranger and it’s your nephew not some random child you don’t know.

I've been looking into other online questions from your sister's perspective, and it does seem possible to do this but it is really hard.

If your DSIS has got a young disabled child, training for a career like this could be life changing.

Is there anyway you can be explicit in what you can commit, instead of an outright, 100% no or a vague, undefined commitment with unclear expectations from your sister?

If for example it was completely possible for your sister to do it but during F1 and F2 she would need you to help for a defined period, is that something you could entertain?

It think this is pretty unfair.

It would be a temporary situation and a mother benefitting herself and her child by gaining a stable, financially lucrative, and eventually flexible, career is hardly "selfish".

I do also feel OP that you are assuming off the bat that her experience of training will definitely be the worst case scenario.

WarningOfGails · 11/01/2024 21:23

What AlohaRose said. Having a child is actually fairly compatible with medical school (I know as I gave birth to our DD in DH’s first year of med school). How old is the child now? They will be at least 5 years older before your sister is actually doing her foundation year training.

This post would make more sense if it was DH who gave birth! As it is, you giving birth while DH does med school just underlines his ability to do med school because YOU are there to look after his baby.

OP's DSis has a SEN child, no mention of a partner / child's father being around, AND wants to do 7 years of med school. All to be facilitated by OP while ignoring OP's own two children and their needs.

It's extremely hard to get in and they won't like the english A level.
Her HCA work experience will be good but she will need a lot more than that.
I would say what you can/ can't do now even if that's you can't agree to anything. My mum volunteered me to walk my brothers dog when I was struggling with everything else so I just said I think you have the wrong end of the stick as there is no way I have time to walk the dog I'm afraid. Just be firm.

You've every right to say no. However I personally would choose differently.

Temporary? 3 months is temporary. A year maybe? Training of this kind lasts 7 years - the whole of the child’s primary school years!
I don’t think it’s harsh at all.
people need to take responsibility for their situations. Parenting Rule Number 1 - you put your child’s needs before you own.
I won’t budge on that I’m afraid.

Well that's probably safer than assuming the best case scenario! Hope for the best but plan for the worst is not a bad philosophy.
And in reality, even the best case scenario will have significant logistical challenges so it makes perfect sense for the OP to encourage her sister to think these things through. Ultimately of course she can't make the decision for her sister and of course she is perfectly entitled to say that she won't provide childcare. But it isn't always that simple.
There is someone in my extended family who never considers anything but the best case scenario in life and as a result frequently gets into situations which require their parents and siblings to bail them out as they just haven't prepared for problems . Everyone says they won't step in again but when it comes down to it and this relative's children are in need of course they do. It's very difficult to leave a loved on to struggle even if you think they have brought their problems upon themselves.
I suspect that is the situation that the OP is keen to avoid. If push comes to shove and her sister embarks on this path without robust childcare/domestic plans in place it's going to be hard for her to say no when presented with a fait accompli. Much better to thrash it all out beforehand.

That is not true. The "new" medical schools will also require 3A's at A levels and will require a high UCAT score. Very few of the previous posters have mentioned the UCAT score, the sister in question will need to sit the UCAT next summer in order to apply and will need a UCAT score be in (approximately) the top 20% of all applicants to be granted an interview.

7 years just gets you to the end of foundation then you have 3 years to train as a GP or ~7 years or train as a consultant.

So realistically 10 years minimum.

I know someone training to be an chiropractor, four years training. She’s in her final year and is in clinic. Every term, the timetable changes around, so she could be going different evenings, mornings and afternoons, compared to the previous term. That alone can cause havoc with childcare. The clinic is local also, so she v doesn’t have to work away.

i imagine a doctors situation is ten times worse, and goes on fir alot longer.

Also, is the university local to you? In another thread, sister was asked to look after dc when she moved from Ireland to England to study midwifery, and was accused of being unsupportive when she refused childcare.

@PurpleWisteria1 Do you think single mothers shouldn’t work at all or only part time then?

As PPs who have actual current experience or knowledge have pointed out, med school hours are less than normal 9-5 working hours with normal university holidays in the pre clinical years. Med students don’t really do night or weekend shifts. Even during the clinical years, med students get a few weeks off at Christmas/Easter/summer. OP’s sister could choose to work reduced hours during her foundation years. She probably won’t even need OP to help out until she graduates in 6-7 years, given that she wouldn’t start her degree until 2025 as she has missed the deadline to apply this year.

There are so many myths on this thread. Everything from A-level grades, subjects and work experience (having worked as an HCA is a huge plus for her application and more than enough) to working hours. I hope OP’s sister doesn’t listen to her and gets advice from people who know what they are talking about.

I find it strange that everyone is very supportive on all the MN threads by single mums wanting to do nursing and midwifery degrees (much harder to juggle with childcare as they do involve 12 hour shifts, night shifts and weekends throughout the degree) but not when a young single mum wants to be a doctor. It all feels a bit “know your place”.

If she wants to do it then it’s her choice. But equally she can’t expect you to look after her kids so she can pursue a career that needs many, many years of study and work until it bears fruit - so YANBU to say that you can’t provide childcare and sacrifice your life.

If she’s seriously considering it then she needs to make enquiries at universities to see if she has the grades etc to get in and see what grants and/or childcare help is available. It would be extremely hard without those. It’s tough even without kids in tow.

It's extremely hard to get in and they won't like the english A level.

That's not true @Daisy12Maisie. If the prospective student already has the right grades in all A levels, including chemistry and biology most medical schools don't really care what the third A level is. What they also want is a high UCAT score and relevant work experience, which the OP's sister does have.

I’m all for women doing whatever job they want but if they have a child then the child’s needs must be seen to properly first.
Firstly if a single mum has a very young pre school child and no solid family help and no partner help then life if going to be rather shit and difficult for a while. Of course I don’t think single mothers shouldn’t work but reliable and consistent childcare should be sorted out first. If that’s not an option via either partner family or childminder then it’s going to be universal credit And staying with the child until free hours or school kicks in. To be honest why on Earth are you having a baby in that position anyway? Honestly people need to take responsibility for themselves and the new lives they bring into the world. Make sure you are in a stable relationship before choosing the life changing commitment of a child. It’s a choice to have a baby for the vast vast majority. That baby doesn’t get a choice. It’s up to the parents to not think me me me and I want want want. It’s not about you if you have a child.

What more will she need? Obviously good entrance exam plus application but paid HCA work is the gold standard for experience and she can discuss many aspects of it in her application, statement and interviews. I can't speak to the a levels as I did the GAMSAT route but others have confirmed that your statement re English is untrue.