Do we actually know who bombed the hospital in Gaza yet?

[Ididivfama]

I keep seeing mixed reports. It’s really unsettling not to know.

Nothing to do with repairing the road that Israel repeatedly bombed then...

What information? That they haven't agreed to a ceasefire? That they are bombing in Rafah? You have just agreed with those 2 points so I don't know what you mean? I never said they were bombing the crossing itself?

I haven't read that Hamas are trying to get to the aid trucks? Where are you getting that imformation from? I've seen videos from press at the crossing and they are not fighting anyone away? Apart from the bombs going off around them it is calm?

Have you actually read any of the statements made in the last few days concerning from the Egyptian and Israeli governments. Aid can go through. The sticking point has been around where and how it is distributed. Israel have, not unreasonably, insisted on checks on truck going into Gaza (so no more rockets make it through disguised as aid) and Egypt have been setting up a safe crossing. I would imagine that is a huge security operation for them. These are two international borders during a war. The negations to open are tricky.

The wording on some posts is very close to a lie with the implication that Israel are bombing to keep aid out. That is not true. The situation is far more complex than that.

The best comparison would be the delays on trucks entering the EU from Britain after Brexit. The extra checks are very much going to slow down the process. But neither country can allow Hamas to be using the aid trucks to import weapons and fighters.

Perhaps try reading more than Tick Tock and Reddit.

Sorry? Why are getting weirdly defensive of Israel?

I haven't lied or close to lied. Israel are bombing around them, I have seen videos from the press where this is clear, you yourself have agreed that they are indeed still bombing away. I never said that they are bombing to keep aid out. Considering Israel themselves have said they don't care about the accuracy of their bombing you have to admit it is a risk to aid workers and that is what I said. Nothing even close to a lie there. It is really normal for temporary ceasefires to happen to allow aid in, Israel will not agree to that, they want to keep bombing.

You insinuating that Hamas are lurking around the aid trucks is close to a lie if you want to go there. There is an agreed drop off spot for the aid. There is no suggestion apart from from Israel that the aid will go to Hamas, there is no suggestion that it is challenging 'keeping Hamas away from aid trucks'.

Hamas have historically diverted a lot of aid to Gaza for its own means. 450 aid trucks a day passed into Gaza pre-conflict. 450! And yet the Gazans were still living well below the poverty line.

The Palestinian Territories received over £551 million dollars in aid in 2022. What happened to it all? Hamas diverted it to buy weapons.

And that is just the declared amount. It does not include money routed from Iran and other sympathetic countries.

@Gruntsandgroans

I would argue with you but you appear to know nothing but viral videos and sound bites. The 2019 NATO report on Gaza makes it clear that Hamas are diverting aid for their own purposes.

The fear is now that the food will be diverted to feed forces in northern Gaza instead of refugees.

Israel have agreed to let the aid through. It is now the responsibility of the government of Gaza (Hamas) to make sure it actually gets to civilians.

If it doesn’t I’m sure you’ll somehow find a way to blame Israel for that too.

That's crazy isn't it? Israel will only allow 20 aid trucks in when they know that pre-bombing it took 450 a day to keep civilians alive. I wonder how Israel thinks that preventing aid from entering isn't deliberating targeting civilians? There is a word for that isn't there 🤔Oh yes, a war crime.

I'm not looking for an argument. You were the one that had an issue with me stating that Israel won't agree to a ceasefire and are bombing around the aid trucks. Even though you yourself said it was true. I really don't know what your problem is. I also don't know why you think I saw Israel not agreeing to a ceasefire on tiktok? It's in all the news.

Yes, the NATO 2019 report into Hamas' Use Of Human Shields does state the following:

"Finally, Hamas also uses the damage caused to civilians and civilian infrastructure as a justification to raise funds from its donor nations (e.g. Qatar, Turkey) and other allies, to rebuild the ruined infrastructure. However, there are many reports that prove Hamas diverts funds meant for reconstruction directly to its armed wing."

But expect this to be ignored and glossed over.

There is no point in talking to you. There i nothing that you can’t twist to be the fault of Israel- against all the available evidence.

Perhaps take your one sided specs off!

You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink

I think it would be really helpful to some on here to spend as much time watching Al Jazeera as BBC/SkyNews.
The truth is likely between the two.
It's a shame that people on here don't recognise Al Jazeera as a legitimate new station.
We all live in echo chambers , maybe that has to change.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/

From the 2009 Amnesty International Report - Israel/Gaza Operation "Cast Lead": 22 days of death and destruction.

The IDF also have form for using Gaza civilians as human shields. More testimony about this disgusting practice on pages 48 and 49 of the report.

According to testimonies, in several cases Israeli forces also forced unarmed Palestinian
civilian males (mostly adults but in two cases also children) to serve as “human shields”, including making them walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives. These practices are not new. Numerous such cases have been documented in recent years and the Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that such practices contradict international law and prohibited them in October

Ok. All I said was that it is awful that Isreal hasn't agreed to a ceasefire and are bombing in Rafah and that I hope aid gets there safely. I think that that is all pretty uncontroversial but judging by your reaction, clearly not. I'm very happy to stop the conversation there ✌

I agree people should watch and listen from different sources. I think on both sides there is often some very bias reporting so balance and caution is best For every 10 news reports I see about the topic there are two that are twisting the truth. For example both the channels you suggested for a start once reported a soilder shot a civilian, even showed some footage. However later the full unedited footage was released and the civilian had run across a road and stabbed a bloke going to work. This meant the soilder was just stopping further attacks. I have seen twisted reports on the other side too. People need to be careful of the bias others have surrounding all this.

450 daily trucks of supplies for a population of 2 million, doesn't sound like very much to me.

Have you divided £551 million by 2 million? The population of Gaza aren't going to be enjoying lobster on that amount of aid.

Exactly in the EU the average amount spent on healthcare is 2000e per capita. 1800e per student on education. There is spending on infrastructure and agriculture. Only in 2021 israel destroyed 40 schools and 4 hospitals, they damaged or destroyed 18 medical facilities, they destroyed people's homes. These have to be rebuilt every time and it costs money. Imagine how much it is going to cost to fix the mess Gaza is in now? Aid isn't just disappearing into nowhere unaccounted for.

Aid isn't just disappearing into nowhere unaccounted for.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61808619.amp

This is not an unusual example.

Of course it happens sometimes. People are crooked no matter where they are. There are enough crooked people in the UK too. Aid is clearly being spent in Gaza though. Insinuations that it's all going to hamas because look they are still poor are wrong though. Gaza is still poor because its people have been continuously controlled and oppressed by Israel, had to constantly rebuild, have strict controls over what comes in and comes out of Gaza. Imagine what the UK would look like if they had next to no foreign trade, weren't allowed to have ports or airports, kept having schools and hospitals bombed etc etc. It's pathetic to look at an oppressed country like Gaza and go 'uh look at all they aid they need to survive and they are still poor'. Well no shit sherlock.

Imagine what the UK would look like if they had next to no foreign trade, weren't allowed to have ports or airports, kept having schools and hospitals bombed etc etc.

Imagine what the UK would look like if the sole purpose of the unelected government was the destruction of its nearest neighbour, if you’d like to engage in extended whataboutery. You might imagine the quality of infrastructure and public services would suffer.

Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to launch rockets, Israel bombs that infrastructure. You might think Hamas is justified, I don’t.

Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to launch rockets, Israel bombs that infrastructure. You might think Hamas is justified, I don’t.

Is that your attempt to paint everyone who is concerned about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza as a terrorist sympathiser?

It's childish and manipulative and it only makes you look bad.

Is that your attempt to paint everyone who is concerned about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza as a terrorist sympathiser?

No, I’m concerned about that myself and I’m certainly not a terrorist sympathiser. You wrote about the loss of people’s homes, infrastructure etc and how little the aid amounts to pro rata. I’m suggesting that Hamas’s own approach at governance is a huge contributor to the problem. Aid being diverted isn’t unusual; infrastructure and civilians being used as shields isn’t unusual… when your government is a terrorist organisation unfortunately quality of life is likely to be impeded even if your neighbour is unimpeachable.

when your government is a terrorist organisation unfortunately quality of life is likely to be impeded even if your neighbour is unimpeachable.

Does that also apply to the innocent civilians living in the state of Israel, then? Just asking because ...

Was not one Itamar Ben Gvir, possibly (or maybe not ... what would I know?!) Israeli National Security Minister, a member of Kach? You know, the ultra-right-wing, Kahanist Israeli terror organisation that used to be considered so extreme that even Israel has outlawed it? Does not the current Otzma Yehudit famously include quite the fine selection of former Kach members. Has he not been convicted?

Is not - again, I am probably mistaken, because surely such a thing would never be allowed?! - one Bezalel Smotrich an Israeli Government minister? Same bloke, perchance, who - apart from just generally being an insufferable racist and demanding, for example, the racial segregation of maternity wards - has openly stated: "I believe that the village of Huwara should be wiped out. I believe that the state of Israel[!!!!!!!!] should do so and not, God forbid, ordinary individuals."

Does that statement, do such ministers, not, maybe, just a little, potentially imply that there may be innocent civilians in Tel Aviv who have the great misfortune of living under a "terrorist government"?

I, for one, will not condone their wholesale collective punishment (a war crime, by the way!) on no other grounds than "yeah, your government sounds a little terrorist - at best! Tough shit, I suppose!" ... and unlike Gazans, Israelis HAVE had elections sind 2006. I would still not condone it!

So, cut the crap, if you will!

This thread is nearly over so I just wanted to end my contributions on a nice note. It's been so heartwarming today seeing the videos of people all over the world getting out on the streets and demanding action from their governments. I've been pretty sickened for the past few weeks watching people contorting themselves to justify the war crimes, the crimes against humanity and the acts of terror committed by the Israeli government. Seeing that so many people care enough to unite and get out on the streets asking their governments to speak out against Isreals crimes is a beautiful thing. I can only hope that they listen, that common sense prevails and that their is some light at the end of the decades of suffering the Palestinian people have had at the hands of Israel.