Do we actually know who bombed the hospital in Gaza yet?

[Ididivfama]

I keep seeing mixed reports. It’s really unsettling not to know.

Identified themselves as a Palestinian Christian, yes.

@FreeCoathangers nobody is saying they don't want jewish people to live there. they are simply highlighting they shouldn't be living in the homes, land and areas they stole from Palestinians. Again not rocket science but you are either not very intelligent or wilfully ignoring the point, or gaslighting, as you have in almost every "point" you have made.

You're gaslighting me. I asked the poster "why you don't think Jewish people should live there" It was a simple enough question.

Can you specify land and area?

Question - do you think you should be allowed to take my personal house and land by force? or that of your neighbour?

As of today, no.

As at the tail end of a world war when others had just killed 6 million of my kind and I was surrounded my more enemies - I'm not sure.

False or Weak analogy since partition of countries is NOT comparable to your house.

A better example would be the dividing up of martial assets.

Partition = splitting up of parts.

Partition itself isn't necessarily wrong and is regarded as a last resort where two or more parties are in conflict.

it's still going on, today. Palestinians kicked out of their homes by IDF, land taken, bulldozed homes. Is that ok?

but the Israelis are still taking land and homes allocated to the Palestinians, today; decades after the partition, slowly, incrementally taking everything.

In the west bank. And they have also declared their intent to "make Gaza smaller".

Is that ok? We get "divorced" then you still take my stuff after everything is supposedly settled?

Sure ….

https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/israeli-settlers

@swirlingabyss if we got divorced and one of us was still a security threat to the other....one of us could end up with restrictions on movement and all the way to having to move.

That's a better analogy than yours.

Never forget the security problem as it goes with the political problem. 🤔

And if you don’t like The Independent, let’s see what Amnesty International have to say ….
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

I don't agree with it, however, I will always go back to the 2 state solutions offered to the Arabs, all 6 of them, all of them refused and know it didn't have to be this way, so if one side isn't interested in peace, why should the other?

Out of curiosity what was the 2 state about and what benefits would it have for the other 6 countries ?

@DownNative the irony of your response. LOL. so... we'll continue to encroach on your land, bomb your children, imprison your citizens, then let's just imprison 2.2m people, harass and torture them, prevent free trade and going in and out, deem them all a threat, not let them out and make out you're a victim? The moral contortions you go through are quite something.

It’s really not looking good is it @FreeCoathangers ? Which areas…..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66027025.amp

I don't believe I quoted and asked you?

Never try responding on Someone else's behalf. 🤷‍♂️

Israel could probably do with new leaders, however, that's not going to happen now.

No. You're blatantly misrepresenting my point

You cannot separate the security problem from the political problem. And I speak from experience of terrorism and the partition reality.

What happened when Israel withdrew from Gaza?

"Security in the area around Rafah is also of concern to Egypt because Sinai has been the site of an Islamist insurgency that flared a decade ago. Hamas, which has run the Gaza Strip since 2007, shares the Islamist ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement outlawed in Egypt."

And:

"Hamas' deadly attack on southern Israel six days ago - unprecedented for the group in its planning and scale - was a devastating demonstration of the military expertise it has gained since seizing control of Gaza in 2007....

Necessity is the mother of invention," said Ali Baraka, a senior Hamas official, adding that the group had long drawn on money and training from Iran and Iranian regional proxies like Lebanon's Hezbollah, while bolstering its own forces in Gaza.

Difficulties in importing weapons meant that over the past nine years "we developed our capabilities and are able to manufacture locally", said Baraka, who is based in Lebanon....

In the 2008 Gaza war, Hamas rockets had a maximum range of 40 km (25 miles), but that had risen to 230 km by the 2021 conflict, he added.

After the most recent Gaza war in 2021, Hamas and an affiliated group called Palestinian Islamic Jihad managed to retain 40% of their missile inventories, a key target of the Israelis, according to the U.S. based non-profit Jewish Institute for National Security of America, keeping roughly 11,750 missiles compared with 23,000 before the conflict."

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/bombardments-hit-area-gaza-sinai-border-crossing-gaza-officials-2023-10-10/

So, as a result of Israel Defense Force pulling out of Gaza in 2005, Hamas ended up in power just two years later. And increasingly improved their weapons capabilities whilst increasing their total membership from 10,000 in 1990 to 40,000 in 2023.

It's quite clear that Israeli withdrawal from Gaza made things worse from a National Security perspective.

Not better.

"Hamas was probably more successful than it thought it would be, but also more successful than it should have been for its own good.....Hamas aimed to penetrate Israel in a way that would give it centrality and relevance for decades to come, but by killing hundreds of Israelis and taking 150 hostages in the first days, Hamas has put itself in an impossible position. Israel is united in its determination to change the status quo ante and completely push Hamas from power. It is hard to imagine that Hamas will be able to retain power in Gaza when the dust settles. There may be hope for the Palestinian national cause, but there’s very little hope for Hamas."

And:

"Since Hamas took power in 2007, the Israeli military periodically would go into Gaza, fight with Hamas, and destroy some of its infrastructure. Hamas would rebuild for a few years, and then the cycle would repeat itself. Israelis called this “mowing the grass,” an unpleasant but necessary repetitive task. This cycle is no longer going to be acceptable to the Israeli public or political leadership. Now, the question is what kind of government will emerge in Gaza after the war. It might entail greater control for the Palestinian National Authority based in Ramallah, some sort of new local governance, governance under the tutelage of the Israeli military, or perhaps a coalition of Arab states. There are a lot of possibilities, but it is hard to imagine that Hamas can remain in power."

And:
"Israel and the Arab states are strategically aligned on Gaza. Virtually all Arab governments are hostile to Hamas, which is essentially the Palestinian version of the Muslim Brotherhood. Many of these states have outlawed the Muslim Brotherhood and jailed its members. They also fear the tentacles of Iran, which has helped bankroll Hamas and trained some of its fighters. Arab governments may have a role in helping shape a political outcome in Gaza that simultaneously helps advance Palestinian national aspirations while also dealing a blow to Islamist movements and Iranian proxies."

Link: www.csis.org/analysis/hamas-and-israel-current-situation-and-looking-ahead

Solve the security problem and you can then begin solving the political problems.

Two state plan From Wikipedia 1937 -
The plan allotted the poorest lands of Palestine, including the Negev Desert, and areas that are known today as the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to the Arabs; while most of the coastline and some of Palestine's most fertile agricultural land in the Galilee were allotted to the Jews

is that it ? If so I’d not accept it

What's with the "Same kind of people"

Don't like Muslims and Arabs much then?

I was directing it at Western Liberal progressive useful idiots, to be fair.

UN partition plan 1947.

Negev Desert went to Israel.

See attachment on other deals plus Saudi frustration with Palestinian leaders.

I am one of these "I hate Hamas...... but", people

Israel have made no secret of the fact that they are targeting the civilian population. This is proven in word and deed. This was the case in operation cast lead in 2009, and again in operation 2014 Op Protective Edge. In both operations they targeted clinics, hospitals and ambulances, they wrecked infrastructure, homes and schools, in Cast Lead they killed 1400 civilians, and during Protective edge killed more than 2000 civilians and injured over 10,000. These previous operations have been referred to by the Israeli gov as "mowing the grass"

Various agencies went into Gaza following both operations and found the Israeli's had been lieing. No evidence was found that Hamas had been using hospitals or clinics, schools or churches in an effort to use Palestinians as human shields.

"Israel destroyed or damaged 17 hospitals and 56 primary healthcare centers during Protective Edge. Source: Al Mezan Center for Human Rights et al., No More Impunity: Gaza’s health sector under attack (2015)"

I have heard Hamas variously described as a terrorist organisation, a leadership, an authority, and a military dictatorship. None the less they were elected 2006 because Israel and America insisted on elections. Elections that they stated at the time were fair and democratic. Hamas was elected Jan 2006 by June Israel launches another operation, Operation Summer rains and kills approximately 200 hundred, many of them children.

The Israelis have said that their intention is to traumatise the population and cause a sense of despair in the hope that the Gazan population will rise up against their "military dictatorship" remember it is argued by Israel that the people are used as human shields, and it has been argued by the rabid pro Israel supporters here and elsewhere that the civilians are a victim of Hamas policy to use them as human shields. However despite years of Israeli lies being repeated in the press and by western leaders none of the independent adjudicators could find evidence of this. For reference please search the Israel prime ministers address after Biden visit.

So, now we have a situation where mowing the grass hasn't worked for twenty years, and now Israel wants to kills the grass.

So they have cut off food, water, fuel and medical supplies to a crowded traumatised, impoverished, imprisoned, poor, and angry, now further traumatised, confused, displaced, homeless and thirsty population who have reigning bombs falling around them, who have no places of safe shelter who are expected to rise up against Hamas?

Is it proof that to fail to hold your leaders to account for their actions this makes you a legitimate target?

Is it really possible to 1) enact genocide upon a population 2)to do so against a refugee population that has no state, 3) having done this expect that they should start a revolution 4) they would be capable of holding a "military dictatorship to account having been displaced, starved and bombed from above? I know I've had managers that were arseholes, but I don't think these are SMART goals!

The Israeli's need to really get their head together here because, right now they are claiming that Hamas has both no legitimacy, and yet they are a military dictatorship, but that the people of Gaza bare responsibility. And yet Israel is a modern democratic state where the people have power and can to some degree hold the their leadership to account? So by their very own argument do they not make their own people a legitimate target? Israel are hypercritical as well as war criminals.

But better still, I think Israel will eventually find itself in a proxy war with Iran, sitting there as ducks. There are reasons why Biden is giving support and military aid, and it's not as friend to the Jews. If any Western power wants to broker peace between Israel and the Palestine people it hasn't a hope in hell as a dishonest actor. Filling people's bellies with aid doesn't offset giving guns to their murderers.

And Hamas, in my opinion the relationship between the people and Hamas is a complicated one. It can not be reduced to an either/or explanation. But I do not agree with the rhetoric that Hamas has made its own civilian population legitimate targets (as there can be no such legitimacy under any international law). unless we also accept that Israeli civilians are legitimate targets, which I do not. Because I do not have a problem with "the same kind of people" (insert Muslim) even though I belong to the other group of people (I'm jewish).

Oh righty ho, not me then I'm a commie mwaaah ha ha :)