Do we actually know who bombed the hospital in Gaza yet?

[Ididivfama]

I keep seeing mixed reports. It’s really unsettling not to know.

Ah, well he was wrong about the location damaged. Anyone can see it was the hospital that was damaged

@NotSuchASmugMarried which in my mind might call into question the rest of their statement

It does matter when public opinion is being manipulated against the only government in the world, ever, that will protect Jewish people. The UK says all the right things but it’s not so long ago it allowed Nazis to persecute its Jewish citizens on British soil. Look at Alderney.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-hamas-gaza-explosion-hospital-b2431631.html

This is a more clear article summarising the details known so far.

This.

I would say most likely Hamas as it would be really bloody stupid for Israel to do it on the eve of Biden's visit, and Israel's not that stupid. The evidence also seems to be pointing that way as apparently the damage doesn't appear to be what you'd expect from an Israeli missile. I'm not sure I'd take conveniently intercepted phone calls as proof though.

And as an aside, absolutely shocked to listen to Biden’s statement earlier today. It was like he was reading, monotone, from a piece of paper, with no understanding of what’s going on. Is he okay? Sounds totally out of it….

Looks like Hamas.

People like a goodies Vs baddies narrative. Makes the process of analysing information quicker and then they can get on with the more satisfying business of emoting ie telling all and sundry about how they themselves are feeling.

I agree. Propaganda on both sides. I’m keeping out of it. I only care about the innocent ones who are on both sides now.
Bombing shooting and killing are not going to solve any of their problems, either side.
I just don’t understand why there are no peace talks going on, that I know of anyway

Biden picked a 'team' like it is all some kind of football game. Its not surprising he picked the 'team' that the US have been supporting to the tune of billions every year. It really is sick.

Meanwhile millions of people are going without food and water, peoples body parts are buried under rubble throughout gaza, whole families have been wiped out. But yeah 'go team Israel'.

Today is a happy day in our house, we a celebrating a huge achievement by our 16 year old so I am trying to pull back from this. It's hard not to think of all the young people in Gaza that will never get the chance to celebrate anything at all though. My thoughts are with them all.

Hopefully it may stop people jumping to conclusions, especially news reporting, media and politics. The damage is done on any credibility of further investigation. People demand proof and counter with it’s obviously fake. Some are more concerned on the blame game than the deaths.

Whoever it was the death toll is likely higher because
a) civilians shelter in hospitals because they think it's safer,
b) Hamas base themselves in hospitals as they think it's less likely to be targeted and
c) Hamas store weapons and ammo at hospitals because they think they are less likely to be targeted.

Has the death toll been verified by anyone outside of what Hamas said? The independent article shows damage only to a car park and not hospital buildings. Were there 500 people in the car park?

He looks absolutely moronic

I have so many questions (for both sides)

1. has anyone independent (whatever that means in this context...) been able to verify if the videos of the 'misfire' are real? Are these the same videos that were apparently recorded 40m before the blast and were then re-released with the timestamps removed? What about the videos that were from 2022?

1. has anyone independent (as above) been able to verify if the video said to show the sound of the blast is real?

1. If the sound video is real, what does the audio tell us about the cause of the explosion?

1. If Israel is correct and the blast only damaged the car park (and the Palestinians are lying about the death toll) then did that mean the reports from doctors working at the hospital are lying? Including ones from MSF etc?

1. Why hasn't someone from the hospital/health ministry/Hamas taken photos/video of the hospital to counter Israel's claim that only the car park is damaged?

1. If the PIJ fired it from the cemetery next to the hospital (as per the audio) then that doesn't match with the video of the 'misfire', as in that video there was certainly some distance traveled before the explosion.

1. If the PIJ did have a misfire from the cemetery behind the hospital which caused a huge explosion at the hospital and the audio is real, then why didn't they realise and have to be told it was them?

1. Is it true that the hospital was told to evacuate by the IDF an hour before the explosion? If so is there evidence of this?

1. What justification has Israel given for bombing this hospital 3 times this week before yesterday's explosion (I think I'm right on this...)

10. What proportion of 'denials' have historically proved to be lies by (a) IDF (b) Hamas (c) PIJ?

That's a clear summary - does seem to lean currently towards PIJ failed rocket launch at minute - though like everything there more information could change that and Propaganda is coming from both sides.

I do think UK saying they are still looking into things is better stance than Biden's but presidential elections may be influencing him though agree with PP he looks ill and not in good enough health for a second term.

@Totalblindnessofthesoul
7. If the PIJ did have a misfire from the cemetery behind the hospital which caused a huge explosion at the hospital and the audio is real, then why didn't they realise and have to be told it was them?

I was confused by this too, however the article I posted above states this about the audio:
"In the audio, one official says to the other that PIJ fired a salvo of rockets earlier that failed. They added: “They shot it coming from the cemetery behind the al-Ma’amadani hospital.”
This hospital appears to be west of the Al-Ahli hospital. The legitimacy of the audio, however, has not been confirmed."

The answer is no, we don't and there are arguments and seemingly evidence on both sides, neither of whom seem to care too much about civilian casualties in general and as such it isn't morally out of step with anything Hamas/IDF have already done.

The truth is: we probably will only really know at a later stage - after an independent investigation!

Right now, the following is happening / known:

1. The strike / or explosion - depending on whose version you believe - happened. And several hundred people, exact number also arguably subject to debate, have died.
2. Israel is claiming that the cause of this was actually a misfired rocket by the group Palestinian Islamic Jihad (please note: Israel is specifically blaming PIJ, not Hamas, as people seem to be claiming.
3. PIJ have denied responsibility).

There are data points and hypotheses - and the inevitable conspiracy theories. But this much we also know:

1. The government of Israel has shown what it claims to be evidence for their version - which may or may not be trustworthy!
2. There is also definite but in this particular question circumstantial evidence of a) Israel currently bombing Gaza, b) historically having shown disregard for Palestinian medical or, generally speaking, civilian institutions (whatever Mark Regev says ...)
3. You will find all sorts of experts and evidence on the internet - most of them are either totally clueless or ideologically blinded.

In either case: ultimately, neither Hamas, nor PIJ, nor the state of Israel get off! In either case, this would not have happened had the IAF not been dropping thousands of bombs on a densely populated area in response to the former two brutally attacking Southern Israeli towns.

Thank you. So a different hospital. That crosses off question 7 and raises a new question 11

11. Does the location and between the al-Ma’amadani hospital and the one that was attacked make sense in terms of direction of fire and whether the timings/distance match the video?

Even before the hospital incident, more than 1000 children alone in Gaza were killed via IDF strikes over 11 days according to Save the Children. Hamas carried out atrocities, but it's horrific for a supposedly democratic nation to collectively punish all Gazans and much as if the British army indiscriminately bombed the Republic of Ireland during the NI Troubles.

Israel has already bombed that hospital a few days ago.

Israeli milliatry issued warings to over 70 hospitals to evacuate - they are going to bomb them.

That is consistent Israeli millitary strategy.

This is genocide.

This thread is going to go down the same route as last night.

@HeidiInTheBigCity
Right now, the following is happening / known:

1. The strike / or explosion - depending on whose version you believe - happened. And several hundred people, exact number also arguably subject to debate, have died.

Is it definitely known that several hundred people have died? I'm clinging to some hope that the '500 hundred dead' is some form of lie as it's just horrific.

Agree @DoDoDoD punishing innocent civilians in all of this is just awful.