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France has outlawed pro-palestinian demonstrations

596 replies

NotSuchASmugMarried · 12/10/2023 21:54

It's worried about the rise of anti-semitism. Do you think the same thing will happen here?

OP posts:
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64
Caketothemilk · 17/10/2023 13:30

flufferknutter · 17/10/2023 13:13

Do the Palestinian people deserve what is happening to them because of what Hamas have done?

Are the pro Israel people happy with the bombing of Gaza and the deliberate denial of humanitarian aid?

I see quite clearly what is happening.

People don't answer this do they 💔

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 17/10/2023 13:37

@Caketothemilk

The only one who is full of propaganda is you.

Are you saying that Hamas didn’t murder all those people?

This was not simply a single terrorist attack. It was the radicalised army of a hostile state deliberately starting a war on its neighbour. Hamas is the government of Gaza. It attacked and then slink back it it’s homeland because it wanted Israel to retaliate so it could cry persecution. Hamas knew what would happen. They set their own people up for this. And they took hostages just to doubly make sure that they would be pursued back into their own lands.

I do feel for the people of Gaza. But if they don’t support Hamas and their aims then they need to get rid of them. If they truly object to what Hamas are doing then they need to ask for help removing them as their government. I’m sure the international community would oblige.

But the reason why Israel has closed the border and Egypt doesn’t want to open their is that the last time a load of Palestinian refugees were allowed to flee to Egypt, the jihadis joined them and started the Arab Spring as thanks. Egypt will not be keen for a repeat performance.

None if this would be happening if Hamas could be trusted to negotiate. But they can’t. They have created a terrorist state. As the government of that state they need to bear the lion’s share of responsibility about what happens in it. If they wanted aid for their people then they could just release all their hostages.

FairylightsandHygge · 17/10/2023 13:38

EasterIssland · 17/10/2023 13:10

Only in daily mail have I seen what happened on the demos. I’m not British so I read more than one newspaper around the world anD can see what happened on the demos. Just because few people are pro Hamas on them doesn’t mean the demos are pro Hamas

I think 15 people were arrested in a demo of 250,000, reported as over 100,000 and the police as usual commented that it was about 10,000 and maybe a bit more.

We are not talking about 100s of people being pro Hamas or anti-semitic but a handful of idiots. Out of a quarter of a million.

Please stop trying to put down people genuinely protesting in support of the Palestinians?

Or do you have a problem with people speaking uo for the Palestinians ?

Because I have seen a few people on here rabidly trying to dehumanise Palestinians and it is vile.

Sadly it mirrors and parrots sentiments coming from high up in the Israeli government and reflects the daily treatment of Palestinians.

Edited to fix 1 typo

etmoietmoietmoi · 17/10/2023 13:39

Caketothemilk · 17/10/2023 12:59

Look you are mistaken here.

Nobody here is condoning Hamas from what I've read. Everybody is speaking up for Palestinians.
We have the right to speak up for innocent Palestinians being killed in thousands in a matter of few days.

We have the right to speak up for 1000 babies killed in the last week.
Please stop trying to silence us in the name of anti semitism.

You can criticise Israel without being antisemitic. I firmly believe that. I also believe that the majority of Jews also believe that, although I certainly acknowledge I have seen some posters where I think that is questionable.

However, what IS antisemitic is obsessively seeking out Jews on every thread on this subject with the express intention to goad, troll and shout them down when they are making substantive, intelligent points, about both the current conflict and the history of the region. That's not to mention the repeated minimising of the fears by the British Jewish community and telling them they are wrong about antisemitic incidents. It's gross and directly mirrors how the right wing racists shout down other ethnic minority groups - your 'All Lives Matter' crowd. There is a certain poster on this thread (and other posters too across all these threads) that have been doing this Jew-baiting practically every waking hour for the last week. Sadly many threads have been pulled now, and I would have preferred these threads remained so their pattern of abuse was there for all to see, although I understand why they were deleted.

We have the right to speak up for 1000 babies killed in the last week.
Please stop trying to silence us in the name of anti semitism

Agreed, we all have a right (and should) speak up against the Palestinian children killed, just like we all have a right (and should) speak up against the brutal murders and kidnapping of Israeli children. What is absolutely vile however are those posters who are intent on downplaying the level of barbarism by Hamas and their obsession with making out Jews are lying about it. I saw one thread started late last night by a usual suspect claiming that one kidnapped Israeli woman has claimed she's been treated wonderfully by Hamas - the source being some far left antisemitic conspiracy websites. The point he/she was trying to make is that Jews are liars. And if you refuse to call that out or acknowledge rancid conspiracies and obvious Jew-baiting, then is it any wonder Jewish people are wary about some people's intentions.

flufferknutter · 17/10/2023 13:40

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 17/10/2023 13:22

@flufferknutter

So what is your solution? Hamas as armed to the teeth. They are holding 199 people hostage in Gaza and refusing to release them. They want a war.

And what several people on here have suggested is that Israel is wrong to try to get their people back and wrong to try to disarm the violent terrorists that killed more than a thousand people. They wiped out while families. The stories are inhuman. That poor couple who had to hide their babies know that Hamas would execute them and praying that their own deaths would not be in vain. That disabled girl whose caters were murdered in front of her and is now a hostage in Gaza. Hundreds of stories that appear not to matter to people who cry ‘Free Palestine’.

If Gaza needs freeing from anyone then it is their own government. They murder, they bomb, they rape and maim their own people and everyone around them.

They have left Israel with very little alternative but to go in and take their weapons from them.

You might also want to considered that the numbers given for Palestinians killed as part of the on going fighting is not all, or even mostly, innocent civilians. It will include all the jihadis and Hamas supporters who have been setting up weapons stores and bases inside apartment buildings and hospitals. They are using the civilians as human shields.

Yes, I am fully aware that Hamas are utter monsters, but wiping out civilians like this is just as deplorable.

The Palestinians have been treated extremely badly since 1948 - displaced, killed, pushed out of their homes. Do you think Hamas was formed as a reaction to this?

Israel needs to step up its security and pay heed to warnings prior to these attacks - which they received from the Egyptians.

Lastly, they should allow the aid convoy in to Gaza, which they're still not doing.

An eye for an eye just leads to more and more death. They're listening to the wrong voice.

Moment Palestinian doctor is forced to identify son killed in airstrike while on shift| ITV News

A Palestinian doctor was forced to identify the body of one of his sons, in the hospital where he was working, after he was killed in an Israeli air strike.D...

https://youtu.be/f0kXElSxBtY?si=Q0TGXwmqsmC4QHkS

FairylightsandHygge · 17/10/2023 13:43

Lastchancechica · 14/10/2023 07:06

I think that is it.

Hamas’ negotiating tactic is to murder babies. In a modern society this is globally unacceptable, they are not representing the people of Gaza or moving their future forward, nor are they protecting their interests or even their lives. They are just continually bombing and killing people as a way to drive Israel away which will never succeed.

If Gaza were able to have an election and vote for a government that was more moderate there could be a chance of real peace. Hamas would likely still exist in some capacity as a small cell, but it would have much less power and influence, and I imagine would lose much of its funding.

Hamas is classified already as a terrorist organisation - with the help of the people of Gaza we should assist to offer them other options that are free of violence and death.

Edited

It is very convenient to float ideas of a moderate Gaza leader when you fail to mention the extreme right wing Netanyahu and his encouragement to settlers to attack Palestinians with impunity, to bring in racist judicial reform and countless other policies.

DownNative · 17/10/2023 13:47

flufferknutter · 17/10/2023 13:40

Yes, I am fully aware that Hamas are utter monsters, but wiping out civilians like this is just as deplorable.

The Palestinians have been treated extremely badly since 1948 - displaced, killed, pushed out of their homes. Do you think Hamas was formed as a reaction to this?

Israel needs to step up its security and pay heed to warnings prior to these attacks - which they received from the Egyptians.

Lastly, they should allow the aid convoy in to Gaza, which they're still not doing.

An eye for an eye just leads to more and more death. They're listening to the wrong voice.

With respect, @flufferknutter, @Ratsoffasinkingsauage asked you if you had an alternative solution to the conflict?

That includes a security solution to the problem of Hamas and multiple other Palestinian terrorist groups.

What we know is that Egypt gave a warning of something that wasn't especially clear of the nature of potential attack:

"We (Egypt) have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047

And:

"We know that Egypt has warned the Israelis three days prior that an event like this could happen," Mr McCaul told reporters following a closed-door intelligence briefing on Wednesday for lawmakers about the Middle East crisis, according to AFP news agency.

"I don't want to get too much into classified, but a warning was given," the Texas Republican added. "I think the question was at what level."

So, the threat level really wasn't clear. Israeli security services receive a LOT of reports of threats, but many of them aren't immediate threats. The challenge is always sorting out actual threats from perceived threats.

Apply the expanded Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to bad intentions (e.g., malice or self-interest) that which is adequately explained by other causes (e.g., stupidity, ignorance, carelessness, incompetence, or lack of information)."

People commonly misunderstand the world of intelligence. Often, the assumption is that intelligence is always of high quality - wrong, it greatly varies from detailed information to very vague information. The other common assumption is that if an attack gets through, its deliberately allowed to happen which doesn't make much sense.

Often, contextual information is left out lest it undermine the conspiracy that intelligence allowed something to happen or to show they're incompetent. Other explanations exist such as incorrect information supplied, information not passed along the security chain, situations suddenly changed so intelligence agencies had to change plans last minute and many more possible explanations.

Intelligence and security failures can have multiple explanations as shown by the US enquiry into 9/11.

The following is an excellent point most people don't understand about intelligence:

"In fact, experts say the sheer quantity of intelligence that Israel collects on Hamas, as well as the group’s constant activity and organizing, may have played a role in obscuring plans for this particular attack amid the endless barrage of potentially credible threats."

And:

"“Intelligence in an environment like Israel isn't finding a needle in a haystack—it's finding the needle that will hurt you in a pile of needles,” Williams says. “Given the number of Hamas members involved in the invasion, it's not plausible to me that Israel missed every human intelligence reflection of the planning. But I feel confident that there are always Hamas operatives talking about credible plans to attack the IDF. So Israel can't respond with force to every threat, even every credible one. They'd be at a heightened state of alert or actively engaged all the time, and that's probably actually worse for security."

  • Jake Williams, a former US National Security Agency hacker and current faculty member at the Institute for Applied Network Security

"The question everyone’s asking is, what role did Iran play? We don’t know. Iran has clearly been a supporter of Hamas financially, materially and politically. But we don’t know the extent to which Iran was involved in the logistical operational part of this training, or what kind of logistical support (it offered the October 7 operation).

I don’t think anyone knows that. Every (country’s) intelligence was caught completely unaware of this, including and especially the Israelis."

• Khaled Elgindy, senior fellow at the DC-based Middle East Institute where he directs the program on Palestine and Israeli-Palestinian Affairs.

On top of that, see the attachment where Hamas boasts they fooled Israel and the West into thinking they were busy governing Gaza Strip.

The lesson learned here is that receiving too much intelligence on potential or actual threats is a security weakness and that intelligence services are NOT infallible although they are an important part of the national security apparatus.

France has outlawed pro-palestinian demonstrations
EasterIssland · 17/10/2023 13:51

FairylightsandHygge · 17/10/2023 13:38

I think 15 people were arrested in a demo of 250,000, reported as over 100,000 and the police as usual commented that it was about 10,000 and maybe a bit more.

We are not talking about 100s of people being pro Hamas or anti-semitic but a handful of idiots. Out of a quarter of a million.

Please stop trying to put down people genuinely protesting in support of the Palestinians?

Or do you have a problem with people speaking uo for the Palestinians ?

Because I have seen a few people on here rabidly trying to dehumanise Palestinians and it is vile.

Sadly it mirrors and parrots sentiments coming from high up in the Israeli government and reflects the daily treatment of Palestinians.

Edited to fix 1 typo

Edited

Not sure you wanted to target my comment. I agree with you. But there are posters here trying to call me stupid because apparently I don’t read the news and I was replying to them.

DownNative · 17/10/2023 13:52

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 17/10/2023 13:37

@Caketothemilk

The only one who is full of propaganda is you.

Are you saying that Hamas didn’t murder all those people?

This was not simply a single terrorist attack. It was the radicalised army of a hostile state deliberately starting a war on its neighbour. Hamas is the government of Gaza. It attacked and then slink back it it’s homeland because it wanted Israel to retaliate so it could cry persecution. Hamas knew what would happen. They set their own people up for this. And they took hostages just to doubly make sure that they would be pursued back into their own lands.

I do feel for the people of Gaza. But if they don’t support Hamas and their aims then they need to get rid of them. If they truly object to what Hamas are doing then they need to ask for help removing them as their government. I’m sure the international community would oblige.

But the reason why Israel has closed the border and Egypt doesn’t want to open their is that the last time a load of Palestinian refugees were allowed to flee to Egypt, the jihadis joined them and started the Arab Spring as thanks. Egypt will not be keen for a repeat performance.

None if this would be happening if Hamas could be trusted to negotiate. But they can’t. They have created a terrorist state. As the government of that state they need to bear the lion’s share of responsibility about what happens in it. If they wanted aid for their people then they could just release all their hostages.

Excellent post with much of it quite easily verifiable. 👍

DownNative · 17/10/2023 14:06

FairylightsandHygge · 17/10/2023 13:43

It is very convenient to float ideas of a moderate Gaza leader when you fail to mention the extreme right wing Netanyahu and his encouragement to settlers to attack Palestinians with impunity, to bring in racist judicial reform and countless other policies.

How did Netanyahu's party get into power?

Start with the wave of Hamas suicide bombers in 1996 and work your way up.

Each attack angered Israeli society and created further polarisation over time. That makes a Netanyahu in government more likely - not less.

Israel did have a left wing government until it didn't.

Can you name a single moderate Palestinian leader?

flufferknutter · 17/10/2023 14:06

DownNative · 17/10/2023 13:47

With respect, @flufferknutter, @Ratsoffasinkingsauage asked you if you had an alternative solution to the conflict?

That includes a security solution to the problem of Hamas and multiple other Palestinian terrorist groups.

What we know is that Egypt gave a warning of something that wasn't especially clear of the nature of potential attack:

"We (Egypt) have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047

And:

"We know that Egypt has warned the Israelis three days prior that an event like this could happen," Mr McCaul told reporters following a closed-door intelligence briefing on Wednesday for lawmakers about the Middle East crisis, according to AFP news agency.

"I don't want to get too much into classified, but a warning was given," the Texas Republican added. "I think the question was at what level."

So, the threat level really wasn't clear. Israeli security services receive a LOT of reports of threats, but many of them aren't immediate threats. The challenge is always sorting out actual threats from perceived threats.

Apply the expanded Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to bad intentions (e.g., malice or self-interest) that which is adequately explained by other causes (e.g., stupidity, ignorance, carelessness, incompetence, or lack of information)."

People commonly misunderstand the world of intelligence. Often, the assumption is that intelligence is always of high quality - wrong, it greatly varies from detailed information to very vague information. The other common assumption is that if an attack gets through, its deliberately allowed to happen which doesn't make much sense.

Often, contextual information is left out lest it undermine the conspiracy that intelligence allowed something to happen or to show they're incompetent. Other explanations exist such as incorrect information supplied, information not passed along the security chain, situations suddenly changed so intelligence agencies had to change plans last minute and many more possible explanations.

Intelligence and security failures can have multiple explanations as shown by the US enquiry into 9/11.

The following is an excellent point most people don't understand about intelligence:

"In fact, experts say the sheer quantity of intelligence that Israel collects on Hamas, as well as the group’s constant activity and organizing, may have played a role in obscuring plans for this particular attack amid the endless barrage of potentially credible threats."

And:

"“Intelligence in an environment like Israel isn't finding a needle in a haystack—it's finding the needle that will hurt you in a pile of needles,” Williams says. “Given the number of Hamas members involved in the invasion, it's not plausible to me that Israel missed every human intelligence reflection of the planning. But I feel confident that there are always Hamas operatives talking about credible plans to attack the IDF. So Israel can't respond with force to every threat, even every credible one. They'd be at a heightened state of alert or actively engaged all the time, and that's probably actually worse for security."

  • Jake Williams, a former US National Security Agency hacker and current faculty member at the Institute for Applied Network Security

"The question everyone’s asking is, what role did Iran play? We don’t know. Iran has clearly been a supporter of Hamas financially, materially and politically. But we don’t know the extent to which Iran was involved in the logistical operational part of this training, or what kind of logistical support (it offered the October 7 operation).

I don’t think anyone knows that. Every (country’s) intelligence was caught completely unaware of this, including and especially the Israelis."

• Khaled Elgindy, senior fellow at the DC-based Middle East Institute where he directs the program on Palestine and Israeli-Palestinian Affairs.

On top of that, see the attachment where Hamas boasts they fooled Israel and the West into thinking they were busy governing Gaza Strip.

The lesson learned here is that receiving too much intelligence on potential or actual threats is a security weakness and that intelligence services are NOT infallible although they are an important part of the national security apparatus.

I am not a middle eastern diplomat so I don't know how Hamas should be defeated, but if you honestly believe that obliterating 2 million Gazan people is the answer then humankind is lost.

I think the world has a responsibility to help create a land for the Palestinian people so they can have a future instead of being ethnically cleansed out of existence. It's obvious that Israel aren't going to give up driving the Palestinians out.

SinnerBoy · 17/10/2023 14:19

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · Today 13:22

And what several people on here have suggested is that Israel is wrong to try to get their people back and wrong to try to disarm the violent terrorists that killed more than a thousand people.

I'm certainly not, I'll be delighted if they extirpate Hamas.

They wiped out while families. The stories are inhuman.

Here's a counterpoint:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/17/israel-palestine-hamas-gaza-west-leader-view

Israeli bombs have killed more than 2,670 people, at least 724 of whom were children. And every single member of 47 different Palestinian families – some 500 people, including dozens of children and babies – has been killed by Israeli airstrikes.

47 entire families, from the babies, to parents, grandparents and great grandparents obliterated, by Israeli bombing.

Standing up for Palestine is also standing up to save the west from the worst of itself | Moustafa Bayoumi

One can be opposed to Hamas, as I am, and to the indiscriminate bombing and ethnic cleansing of Gaza, as I am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/17/israel-palestine-hamas-gaza-west-leader-view

DownNative · 17/10/2023 14:39

flufferknutter · 17/10/2023 14:06

I am not a middle eastern diplomat so I don't know how Hamas should be defeated, but if you honestly believe that obliterating 2 million Gazan people is the answer then humankind is lost.

I think the world has a responsibility to help create a land for the Palestinian people so they can have a future instead of being ethnically cleansed out of existence. It's obvious that Israel aren't going to give up driving the Palestinians out.

I must say that I am not advocating "obliterating 2 million Gazan people" by any means.

As far as I can see, neither is the Israeli Government.

The possible range of options is so limited that there's precious few other alternatives open to the Israeli Government that is viable.

Aside from Hamas, Palestinian leaders have a history of rejecting various peace deals. There also a history of Palestinians assassinating or attempting to Arab leaders engaged in normalisation of relations talks with Israeli leaders, e.g. the assassinations and attempted of Jordanian Kings.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and what happened was Hamas improved their weapons capabilities, membership, etc.

All of these different strands combine to leave one option - destroying Hamas.

Given Palestinian rejection of multiple peace deals, how can the international community do any more?

Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman's 2018 comment on the Palestinians is instructive.

Israel, on the other hand, has a history of land for peace deals. Sharp contrast to the Palestinian leaderships.

France has outlawed pro-palestinian demonstrations
France has outlawed pro-palestinian demonstrations
France has outlawed pro-palestinian demonstrations
France has outlawed pro-palestinian demonstrations
flufferknutter · 17/10/2023 15:04

DownNative · 17/10/2023 14:39

I must say that I am not advocating "obliterating 2 million Gazan people" by any means.

As far as I can see, neither is the Israeli Government.

The possible range of options is so limited that there's precious few other alternatives open to the Israeli Government that is viable.

Aside from Hamas, Palestinian leaders have a history of rejecting various peace deals. There also a history of Palestinians assassinating or attempting to Arab leaders engaged in normalisation of relations talks with Israeli leaders, e.g. the assassinations and attempted of Jordanian Kings.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and what happened was Hamas improved their weapons capabilities, membership, etc.

All of these different strands combine to leave one option - destroying Hamas.

Given Palestinian rejection of multiple peace deals, how can the international community do any more?

Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman's 2018 comment on the Palestinians is instructive.

Israel, on the other hand, has a history of land for peace deals. Sharp contrast to the Palestinian leaderships.

This bombing action will not obliterate Hamas. They will regroup and continue. Most of them don't even reside in Gaza, particularly the leaders. This is about revenge and a cynical attempt to bring an end to the Palestinian problem.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 17/10/2023 15:07

Precisely put @DownNative this is not a sudden occurrence. It has been coming for a long time and is almost wholly down to the position taken by Hamas and others in the Arab world concerning the very existence of the state of Israel. And it does seem like they are now farming support from the west because their nearer neighbours- Jordan, Egypt Saudi Arabia and the UAE are all sick to the back teeth of them.

The fact is the the cause of ‘Free Palestine’ is a front for some the most rabidly illiberal people on earth to exercise their right to hate, abuse and murder. And what we see as self proclaimed Gazans are in fact a hodgepodge of people who have flocked to the area to help fight what they see as a holy war- Yasser Arafat among them.

There were many wrong done in the partition plan in 1948- many families who lived in British mandate Palestine found themselves in tricky positions. But the situation now is almost entirely down to extremists like the PLO and the Muslim Brotherhood refusing to accept a Jewish state.

StarbucksSmarterSister · 17/10/2023 15:24

DdraigGoch · 17/10/2023 13:14

You haven't seen some of the posts I've seen then. Even before the IDF started hitting back there were posts implying that the pogrom was a reasonable response.

I've seen them too, and denial or minimising of what Hamas did.

Killing women and children in response to the murder of other women and children is horrific and won't do anyone any good at all but the way many people didn't even pause to accept how terrible the Hamas attack was before launching into rhetoric within 24 hours is awful.

StarbucksSmarterSister · 17/10/2023 15:34

Netanyahu can and will be voted out and hopefully this will finish him for good, unfortunately at the cost of many lives on both sides. He was already unpopular in Israel with demonstrations against him, there are now far more.

Hamas can't be voted out because they won't allowed elections and an uprising against them seems unlike since they control all the weaponry.

DdraigGoch · 17/10/2023 15:44

FairylightsandHygge · 17/10/2023 13:38

I think 15 people were arrested in a demo of 250,000, reported as over 100,000 and the police as usual commented that it was about 10,000 and maybe a bit more.

We are not talking about 100s of people being pro Hamas or anti-semitic but a handful of idiots. Out of a quarter of a million.

Please stop trying to put down people genuinely protesting in support of the Palestinians?

Or do you have a problem with people speaking uo for the Palestinians ?

Because I have seen a few people on here rabidly trying to dehumanise Palestinians and it is vile.

Sadly it mirrors and parrots sentiments coming from high up in the Israeli government and reflects the daily treatment of Palestinians.

Edited to fix 1 typo

Edited

15 people was probably all that the police had the manpower to arrest. I notice that they're looking to question more people on the back of the footage shared.

250k people? Give over. The police figures of "closer to 10k" are far more reliable than anything you've just made up.

DownNative · 17/10/2023 16:56

flufferknutter · 17/10/2023 15:04

This bombing action will not obliterate Hamas. They will regroup and continue. Most of them don't even reside in Gaza, particularly the leaders. This is about revenge and a cynical attempt to bring an end to the Palestinian problem.

Hamas is based in Gaza, so their members are there. Or at least a majority of them are.

Their leaders, based in Qatar, cannot do a thing if most of their membership is wiped out by Israeli Defence Force.

They'll not be given a second chance to rebuild their tunnels and other infrastructure they need. Israel made that mistake from 2005-2023.

Turning Hamas into a small rump movement will be enough for a long while.

This is about destroying Hamas' capabilities to attack Israel.

1jan2020 · 17/10/2023 17:05

DownNative · 17/10/2023 16:56

Hamas is based in Gaza, so their members are there. Or at least a majority of them are.

Their leaders, based in Qatar, cannot do a thing if most of their membership is wiped out by Israeli Defence Force.

They'll not be given a second chance to rebuild their tunnels and other infrastructure they need. Israel made that mistake from 2005-2023.

Turning Hamas into a small rump movement will be enough for a long while.

This is about destroying Hamas' capabilities to attack Israel.

I hope you’re right. If Hamas can (mostly) be eliminated from Gaza then perhaps there might be a minute chance of peace. I pray that is the case.

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