France has outlawed pro-palestinian demonstrations

[NotSuchASmugMarried]

It's worried about the rise of anti-semitism. Do you think the same thing will happen here?

The mistake you're making is thinking that I support terrorism, I do not and I have very little concern for what happens to the perpetrators when they are found.

You are adopting a "you're either with us or against us" attitude. Bush used those words to recruit international support for his war on terror. Things are no better for the people of Afghanistan now and we have not won the war on terror. We need to learn lessons from history.

I'm not into gaslighting so I am not going to pretend that we have not seen a rise in antisemitism. I have been quite shocked at the blatant way it has been expressed at some of the demonstrations. I understand why Jewish people are worried, I am too, I don't blame them and I am sorry they are still having to deal with discrimination. I've though a lot this week about how the Holocaust happened and wondered if the behaviour of emboldened antisemites is how the dehumanisation process started. My concern for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza has nothing to do with terrorist sympathisers or antisemites. I condemn them without equivocation.

Palestinians have many reasons for legitimate grievance. Some may have expressed support for armed resistance against the restrictions imposed on them by the Israeli government. If Hamas has attacked military targets you could argue this was an act of war. They did not. Their objective was to brutalise civilians, that is an act of terror. There is no justification for their actions.

I have said several times this week that I understand why the Israeli government wanted a brutal military response. It would be really unreasonable to expect their first impulse to be a diplomatic resolution after the savagery inflicted on the civilian population. However I think the international community has a duty to press for restraint both to prevent loss of civilian lives in Gaza and escalation to a regional conflict.

The world is truly screwed if our solution to problems which seem too difficult to solve is to simply start killing people.

@FOJN
The terrorists from that nation are the elected government of that nation. They ran on a platform of wiping out Jews. At least some of the population must support them. And that doesn’t mean that they deserve to be bombed. Not at all. The issue is that Hamas is a terrorist government that hides weapons in hospitals and civilian homes in order to bait Israel into firing on these areas. They play the online propaganda game incredibly well.

It also doesn’t help that jihadis flock to Gaza to take part in what they see as a cleansing of Jews from the land. Are these Palestinians? What counts as a Palestinian? Arafat was an Egyptian who came to Palestine in the 1948 war as part of the Muslim Brotherhood.

I addressed this earlier in the thread.

The last elections held in Gaza were 16 or 17 years ago. 50% of the population are under the age of 18 which means that we have no idea if Hamas would hold power if free and fair democratic elections were held.

Nothing else in your post is news to me although you clearly think I needed an education.

At least we agree that civilian populations do not deserve to be bombed.

@FOJN I think you need to consider that the identity of the Palestinians is often co-opted by jihadis for all over the world in the name of holy war. What is happening right now is that Iran has used Hamas to engineer a situation in which it can legitimately have a go at Israel and be supported by quite a chunk of the western population in doing so.

I’m afraid I see the ‘Free Palestine’ crowd in the US and U.K. as useful, if well meaning, idiots who are being whipped up to aid Iran in their ultimate aim of wiping out Israel as a state.

Seriously please read my earlier posts on this thread.

Stop @ me, I'm here watching the thread.

And please ditch the patronising tone, I do not need your instruction on what to consider particularly as I have addressed the points you're raising earlier in the thread.

Lastchancechica · Today 05:26

There is no evidence Israel have ever done that. This is fake propaganda to try and deflect where the real blame lies, and that is with Hamas.

There's loads of evidence, some linked to on this and some of the numerous other threads on this subject. Earlier this year, a 16 year old schoolgirl was shot in the head by an Israeli sniper, from a distance of less than 50 metres.

Snipers don't kill accidentally and certainly not from that distance.

Others have linked to records of the numbers of children, between the ages of 0-5, who've been killed by Israeli forces.

During the last few incursions into Gaza, the Israelis have targeted UN shelters, using artillery and snipers, falsely claiming that Hama's terrorists were using them as firing bases.

Press and private film footage showed that it was a tissue of lies, from start to finish. The Israelis back-tracked each time, sating that the weren't in the shelters, but nearby and later that there were no shooters, oops! It was just a mistake.

And yes, Hamas can all fuck off and die, not least because of their most recent depraved, scarcely believable barbaric murder raid.

@FOJN

I was directly addressing points you made about the terrorists not being the Palestinian people. And I’ll address who ever I like- it is a free board. Feel free to ignore me.

believably...

The accidental death of one child is not comparable to 1300 deliberately executed

You're talking about Jana Zakarneh who was shot by Border Police after they came under fire from the terrorist Palestinian Islamic Jihad group. This took place on rooftops.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-kill-palestinian-girl-west-bank-palestinian-ministry-2022-12-12/

It's possible for things to go wrong in military and police operations, including mistaken identity, accidentally shooting someone caught up in crossfire, etc.

Some examples:

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2012-05-22/solider-was-accidentally-shot-by-sniper

https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article279125344.html

Snipers may be highly skilled, but they are not infallible or in control of various environmental factors, especially in conflict zones.

Unfortunately, its not always possible to prove something.

Posted somewhere on this site was a survey that said that Hamas had 71% support. Hamas are basically acting like any other populist, they're stirring up conflict to unite people around a common enemy.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-08-12/ty-article/israel-used-drone-to-kill-4-children-playing-on-gaza-beach-in-2014/0000017f-f456-d044-adff-f7ffc0230000

4 kids killed mistaken whilst playing football on the beach as they thought they belong to Hamas.
I mean , maybe some of them shouldn’t be doing that role if they mistake kids on a beach with terrorists …

Lastchancechica · Today 14:51

That's just one particularly egregious example. Again, snipers don't kill people accidentally.

This is quite a moving discussion with a well known Holocaust survivor.

This was tragic.

However, none of us know how these drones are operated and what visibility the operators have because it will be classified information.

There are different sorts of drones.

This was certainly a military drone that has fire capacity.

Unless we have military experience in operating these military items we aren't really in a position to make judgements are we?

You can't equate snipers with drone operators - there is no comparison because they have different sets of skills.

So all the people that has been by Israel in the last decades is tragic. Shit happens. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m glad some Jews are raising up against the Israel government. And are seeing it all as more than tragic

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/un-peacekeepers-in-lebanon-say-base-hit-by-rocket-fire-no-injuries/

this was just bad luck as well. Something I’ve got clear is that I’ll never visit Israel. Taking into account how many people are being killed “by accident “ I do t want to risk my luck

Well Israel is a dangerous place; it was won by force, it's kept by force, and you move around by the grace of the government. If you have ever been there you will see it from the moment you arrive. This is not some European country where you can stroll around as you please.

And this is not against Israel- they would be the first to say that their freedom comes with security and their society runs on it.

It is the only place I have ever been where I was asked if I had a gun before I went into a five star hotel.

When anyone is hit by 'friendly fire' it is a tragedy.

Areas of conflict are areas of danger both for combatants and non-combatants.

It is a sad fact but true.

Here are a list of 'friendly fire' incidents for perspective -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents

@bombastix

If you have ever been there you will see it from the moment you arrive. This is not some European country where you can stroll around as you please.

I'm surprised by that TBH, I guess it might depend where exactly you went. I used to go to Tel Aviv frequently for work purposes and in my down time strolled quite happily, much the same as you can do in most of Europe - I accept it might be more controlled near the border.

It is the only place I have ever been where I was asked if I had a gun before I went into a five star hotel.

Never had that happen on my trips there, OTOH I have had bags x-rayed on entering some hotels in many parts of the world (e.g India, parts of Africa)...have seen warnings about firearms in some hotels in some parts of the US.

That said of course on leaving Israeli the airport security process was always interesting.

In recent years the security has intensified.

Yes it is quite a peppy experience these days hitting checkpoints, entering hotels etc. I was there this summer.

I think maybe some people on MN are rather naive with foreign travel apart from going for a week in Benidorm.

I was in Barcelona on business years ago when there were problems with ETA (Basque Separatist Group).
When I went into the bank in the daytime, to cash some travellers cheques the bullet holes in the windows made me a bit uneasy.

When some of us went for a walk down the main street that night we walked into some kind of a demonstration. Within minutes we were told to stand up against a wall by police who had some type of gun held by a strap on their shoulder.
Thank goodness we could explain (in Spanish) that we weren't terrorists, and after producing our passports we were allowed to go back to the hotel.

No-one appreciates UK until you have had such experiences.

@bananasplitsarefab - yes the UK is s very safe country. Similar experience in China, threatened by s machete, and in India I had to have an escort.

Tourist travel is not the same. Israel is not the same as the UK. Even in the U.K. during the conflict in NI there was much violence.