What is going to happen to all the litters of xl bully puppies?

[Wanttobeok]

So now that XL Bullys are going to be banned by the end of the year (fully in support of that) what is going to happen to all the puppies?

Currently on gumtree for my city alone there are about a dozen adverts for litters of this "breed" so across the country it must be hundreds.

I can see that the prices have already been massively reduced but who is going to buy one now knowing that it will have to be on lead, muzzled etc

What will these breeders do with all the unwanted puppies.

It occurred to me that if they release them into the wild then we could have packs of wild dangerous dogs roaming around...

The fact he is being sold ‘intact’ 🤦🏼‍♀️. Why? A dog should always be neutered unless you are a registered breeder.

Few reasons I'd imagine:

1. the owners think intact makes them look harder, more intimidating
2. Worry that neutering would make them less aggressive
3. wanting to make cash off them

Daily mail link I’m afraid, interview with Shivas owner who knows the details. Sounds like some of the other dogs are still being held which is heartbreaking.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12524419/How-dog-walker-savaged-death-Surrey-beauty-spot-pounced-giant-pit-bull-rescued-weeks-DAVID-JONES-reveals.html

Who will enforce this? There is provision under the DDA already for any dog dangerously out of control in a manner that causes alarm (before it injured anyone) yet there is nobody enforcing this. The dog warden service is woefully underfunded - we have one man, office hours only, for an entire county.
We need compulsory licensing for all dogs, (obviously owners of problem dogs won’t comply but law abiding folk will) with the proceeds used to properly fund enforcement of existing dog laws, powers to seize and euthanase any dog that is not licensed and chipped, and much, much tougher sentencing for anyone whose dog causes injury or death.

It does sound like they are going to widen it to variants. Most XLs are just inbred American Bulldogs, which are already banned, with a bit of something else. I’d say it’s fair that the law covers any dog which is over 50% Am Bully.

DNA testing would probably be quite accurate with this breed as they are so, so interbred. An expert in XLs was saying that the majority in this country are bred from one original dog who had severe agression issues and then these have all been interbred to ‘improve’ the bred.

Is sick really. These breeders have no one but themselves to blame for this.

I'd argue that the best idea would be to have a system of expensive dog licensing to fund it. Upwards of £100 per year.

over less than 15 attacks from this breed alone in 4 years

That's just human deaths since 2021 @BethanyL. There have been masses of attacks by XL bullies on other dogs, maiming and killing them, and many cats killed. There are videos off people's Ring doorbells of XL bullies smashing through gates and fences to get at pets in their own gardens, where the bullies then rip them to shreds - it's fucking horrible.

Plus, those 11 deaths are the tip of the iceberg in terms of attacks on humans. Most people survive, some with horrible, life-changing injuries. So saying it's fewer than 15 attacks in 4 years is absolutely wrong and extremely misleading. We're talking about 11 deaths in three years, three of them DC. I'd love to see the stats for attacks on humans and deaths of other people's dogs and cats, because those numbers will be huge and paint a far more accurate picture of the threat this particular type of mongrel (it's not a breed) poses to both humans and their pets.

@VeloVixen - that linked articale says the dog was NOT an XL bully? ...

"Until now it has been reported that Stan was an XL bully, a dangerous and relatively new breed genetically programmed to be super-strong and aggressive, and, indeed, Natasha's friends say she always presented him as such.

In one of many twists to this harrowing incident, however, veterinary surgeon Dr Alison Robson, an expert court witness called in to investigate the cause of Natasha's death, says Stan was a pit bull - one of four breeds that are already illegal in Britain."

@GlowingBees

XLs are just inbred, rebranded pit bulls. The questions that has to be cleared up now is ‘what is an XL Bully’. I would suggest that anything with close to or over 50% Pit bull or American Pitbull DNA needs to be covered by the ban.

Can't manage cars on the road or shoplifters. No one is going to enforce dog licenses despite what Sunak or Braverman might say.

They've announced that anyone who has one will not have to get rid of it, they need to register that they have one and they have to be neutered and muzzled in public. Sounds sensible to me.

Hopefully there won't suddenly be a flood of 'Special Staffies'. The argument in this article makes sense:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12523881/How-authorities-decide-dog-XL-Bully-Key-characteristics-pet-risk-ban.html

'What we can't work out is the mongrels - with a couple of crosses in there. You end up with a changed dog that's still got the drive and the instinct of the American Pitbull, quite often used for the same type of work, dog fighting, shoot hunts, all the rest of it.
'It leads to a moral dilemma - if you add in any type of mastiff [when breeding], like a Cane Corso, the dog is a mongrel and that's a problem for the legislators.
'I don't believe we should ban specific breeds. We should ban types, attributes: wide mouths, athletic bodies, used for dog fighting.
'If they're part of that description, you put them on a list of potentially banned dogs.
'The problem with a breed ban is if you ban, say a short-hair American Bully, people will breed long-haired one. If you made it much more general, if you did that, that's a start.
'That way, you're not just banning it, you're controlling it. It all sounds harsh but it's the only way you can deal with it.
'We've had another person killed (this week), seven this year, 10 last year and heading for the same, and we hadn't jumped on it as quickly as we did we would've seen a lot more.
'It's not just the dog's build - it's what they've been bred and what they've been taught to do, and Americans have been messing about with the DNA of them [American Pitbulls], affecting it, making it more muscular, more reactive, more aggressive. We need to ban all imports from America, too.'

DNA testing will not be accurate enough - I don't think. You only have to look as the results coming back from them: purebred dogs with several generations of known ancestry coming back as 50% something else etc.

You'll end up with litters where half of them pass the test and half fail - which is just daft.

The targetting of the dogs is not the answer, imo. Owners need to be targetted. Personally, I'd welcome dog licences coming back that authorise owners to own certain weights of dog - meaning it is harder to get a licence to own big/heavy dogs than lighter ones.

Licence conditions involve mandatory training and the passing of a test to prove you know the animal you want to own and understand how to train, house and keep it in a way that minimises risk and provides adequate welfare (mental as well as physical). That should include understanding how to recognise a malformed dog breed and the consequences on the dog of having no muzzle or spread out legs that do not correctly hold their body weight etc. Yes, dog owners will need to bear the cost of the administration of that but I believe it will improve dog welfare as well as public safety.

That said, none of that would have saved that dog walker (dog walkers requiring stricter qualification controls is another thing) who walked 8 dogs, several of which were large, off lead in a public place, including her own which was a mistreated 'rescue' that had already given her good reason to be wary. But the banning of the breed she owned, also didn't save her.

@GlowingBees

I’ve been looking around the Reddit boards about this for the last few days and breeders are pretty clear that a) the lines are incredibly inbred and b) they are intensively
inbred from APBT stock and therefore predominantly APBT with only a touch of mastiff or other large breed.

The DNA on these dogs should have made them part of the DDA ban on APBTs already, since they are almost entirely bred from them. I’m tact, most of the XLs in this country come from just one stud. Should be an extremely easy line to chase with a sample from that dog.

I would be happy with all pit types being banned. Their breeding is cruel, opportunistic and unnecessary.

Yes, that’s exactly what I said. Her friend said she’d bought it thinking it was an xl bully but the vet said it was a pit bull. Xl bully as far as I know isn’t an exact breed, it’s a mix of different bull breeds, mainly American bull terrier. But that it’s perfectly possible for such a named dog to be a pit bull. That’s literally what I said in my first post. 🤷‍♀️😁

So the concern is that bull breed mixes will continue to be churned out but be given a different name. How many other xl bullies are actually pit bulls?

Hmmm. I'd love to know what data they are using to track that, particularly with this 'breed' which is so often bred is secret and with no paperwork.

The import of dog semen for breeding is big business and a number of the these dogs come from homemade 'breeding labs' - so I would be genuinely amazed if they all line back to a single stud when there is the option for so much US genetic material that would produce superior (if large and mean looking is your aim) puppies.

In fact, if they are referring to the dog I think they are (Killer Kimbo), at best he is responsible for 50% of puppies. BUT that uses publically declared family lines to assess that % and the chances are high that many, many puppies do not have their lineage declared publically - because they are not that 'impressive'. It would make sense you only bothered to advertise lineage if the lineage was notable in some way. If you just knocked together two pets no one had ever heard of and sold the puppies, you'd never bother to publish lineage - most of which you won't know anyway.

I see that now @VeloVixen - apologies. In my early morning fug I thought you were saying it the other way round (thought to be pit, turned out to be XL).

@GlowingBees

The breeder boards are interesting. It seems that Killer Kimbo (I had forgotten the name so thanks for reminding me) was the sire of many of the originally introduced litters and because of the original breeding program is actually the ancestor of many dogs being bred by backyard breeders. People aren’t keeping records but if you are breeding brother and sister for quick cash then the gene pool is going to be tiny.

Like I said- I’d be interested if they could map the gene pool as part of the ban. If they are looking to make an official breed standard then they just might.

You can do DNA tests for £70 which tell you exactly what they are and what % mix of each breed is in them.

I assume part of what they're doing now is defining exactly what is banned from a DNA perspective.

Is any % of pit bull or American bull allowed or does it have to be, for example, more than 15%?

Both pit bull and American bull show up as specific breeds on these DNA tests.

Owners of mixed breed rescues often get them done to see what their dog is made up of, you can get them done via post (similar to 23andme but for dogs instead of humans).

The two leading providers are Embark and Wisdom.

I'm fed up with hearing, it's not the dog it's the owner. Yes, the way the owner has brought up the dog, of course has an impact but some dogs are inherently more likely to kill a person.

As in sitting on your feet?

That meant they liked you and wanted pets!

I think we need to remember that Staffies are a very long established breed in the UK that don't have the interbreeding from known aggressive lines that XL bullies have. This means they don't have the genetic propensity to unprovoked attacks on humans.

Although there is a similar look they are nowhere near the size and strength of an XL / pit bull and shouldn't be lumped in together with them.

You can do DNA tests for £70 which tell you exactly what they are and what % mix of each breed is in them.

They really don't. The reason I flagged it above is because we used one for this dog once as a gift. It's hard to tell from a photo but he weighed about 5kg. It came back 50% chihuahua (possibly true) and 50% border collie (definately not!). If border collies were banned on DNA, he would have been caught up in this but a less collie like dog I have never seen, regardless of the test results.

Not knocking the Government, this is going to be a very difficult job and to a large extent will have to be type-driven rather than whatever someone is calling the 'breed' at that point of time.

It also has to bring in a zero tolerance behaviour approach as well, surely? There is no legal interest in dog on dog (or other animal) attacks at the moment, but I think this surely has to be brought in to play too. The attacks that these types make on dogs maim and kill, they are not normal dog spats.

I would change direction to avoid passing any I might meet on a walk - thankfully extremely rare round here - perhaps they are friendly, but by Christ I'm not going to be the one to find out, the thought of my dogs being ripped apart in front of me makes me feel physically sick. (Let's not even think of the poor man yesterday, and those who witnessed it and had to manage the aftermath.)

I love big dogs, I am not a hand wringer about normal breeds, but this type of dog is just an incomparable problem to anything we've had before at scale in this country, and the problem is growing. Anyone who can't see that, proportionally to their population, they are an issue is frankly a bit thick.

The existing population won't be rounded up and PTS when the law passes, but by God there should be no tolerance for any dog causing issues, including those that aren't contained securely and escape their homes. If these owners care so much about their dogs, they should demonstrate good animal husbandry and ensure that this doesn't happen, and if the dogs escape/off lead on walks/un-muzzled/un-neutered or cause any issues at all in their community, they should be seized.

I also think that it should be made illegal for rescues to re-home any dog of this type - sad for the workers, but let's reduce their population where possible and not pass on dogs that are as likely as not to have issues, or they wouldn't be in rescue in the first place.

Oh, and any consenting adults who currently own these dogs, let Darwinism plot your future - but anyone who has them in a house where children live or visit, shame on you.

This is an example of the results of an Embark DNA test on a mixed breed dog that has a pit bull type (this one is American but same test)