Selling parents home for care fees

[year12clueless]

I need some quick advice- both moral and legal.

I've been largely estranged from my parents for years. Occasional visits if I'm in the area (several hundred mikes from where I live now) and phone calls at Xmas etc. They're fine with this as am I.

They have a 4 bed house somewhere nice. For the past 36 years they have had their friend "Bob" living with them. He moved in when I was a teenager as he was apparently struggling to find somewhere to live. Honestly it was a very strange set up (everyone, including my parents had their own bedroom) and Bob is a little peculiar. However the three of them have lived together happily. Bob is a big reason for the estrangement between us- we never got on, he was sometimes very unpleasant to me (verbally) and my parents never defended me. Honestly they've been happier just the 3 of them.

Mum is now in hospice care and not expected to last much longer. Dad and Bob have been visiting her daily and after a recent visit the hospice called adult protective services. They visited the house and found it in a reasonable condition (Bob was very house proud!) but identified that my Dad's care needs were such that Bob couldn't look after him alone any more. Turns out Dads dementia is bad (this was hidden from me) and Bob had a slight stroke meaning he can't lift or manage dad who is doubly incontinent etc.

I've now been told that the best solution for dad will be a care home.

The issue- apparently the house will need to be sold to fund this. However this will leave Bob homeless. He hasn't even got the full state pension as he never really found a job he liked. He's about 10 years younger than dad and apart from weakness from the stroke he's healthy.

I have seen my parents will. They left the house to me but Bob has the right to stay in it until he dies. However they didn't think about this situation. Bob has never paid any rent or anything so there's not even a rental contract.

Honestly I dislike Bob intensely. However I can't see him homeless. But I'm not sure what the legal position is. I've spoken to the council who refused to consider him in their calculations and just kept telling me the house should be sold.

-I need to not upset mum in her final weeks

• do the best thing for dad (care home)
• hold my nose and try to help Bob

Does anyone know what the legal situation is with regard to Bob? I can't really afford a solicitor ATM and whilst mum and dad have money I can't access it (Bob can though as he's got their bank card!)

I spoke to Age Uk and the woman said this was new to her (!) and she'd speak to someone and call me back but they haven't. All this will take time to set up and so I need to start making decisions now.

Has anyone got any information or advice?

Sorry I meant why hadn't they done that for Bob instead of just handing their card over.

Got lost in my musings!

This is very good advice.

True. But the OP is concerned about the house sale. That would have to happen once the other resources are depleted. She doesn’t even have visibility on what those other resources are. It’s the predicament OP has been put in that she’s writing about. My point is, she can take a practical approach to it all as her interests are aligned with the creditors’ interests. Bob doesn’t come into it.

Is there any chance Bob is an illegitimate child of one of your parents? I’d be reporting him to SS and the bank for financially abusing your parents. Definitely go down and look for bank statements etc to see what savings there are that could be used.

If you’ve been virtually estranged from your parents for many years….are you expecting any inherit from them? If you haven't really had much contact why not just let Bob sort all your parents affairs out? Seems like he’s been more of a live-in help than just a lodger.
Perhaps he can arrange some home care for your father & live the rest of his days in the house?
Dont the council put a ‘charge’ on the property to be paid back when it’s eventually sold?
i’d hate to be anyone involved in this situation…you, your parents or Bob.
hope it gets sorted amicably.

We have two types of POA in place, in a cascade of permutations depending on what happens to DH/I, first or together.

It’s not easy facing these questions, thinking about all the things that could happen. But it’s easier (for the D.C.) than leaving things undone. We consider it yet another parental duty. There’s never an easy time to lose a parent and deal with this stuff, whether you’re under 18 or in your 50s/60s.

Honestly, I'd just get financial and health POA ( easily done on UKGov website and discuss with a lawyer.

Bob's welfare really isn't your concern now, harsh though that seems.

Did you miss the bit about him using it to buy food for the OPs father? OP isn't local, until a care home is decided on he is relying on this man. OP doesn't want her father to starve even if they aren't very close.

Well cleaning out the account might be what's left of this months pension. Everyone seems to assume this couple have vast amounts of money in their current account but that doesn't make it true.

Anyway the OPs concerns don't seem to be fixated on their current account.

I don’t know the situation legally, but Bob has made his own bed. He’s chosen not to work. He chose to be awful to you. He’s not thought about his old age.

Sell the house. The Council will then have to house him.

@year12clueless - I don't know how long ago you did them but I think that's changed. It also took me a long time to get my parents LPAs in place, the backlogs are horrendous.

Sorry, if neither of your parents have capacity, you won't be able to get a POA.
You need proper legal advice.

@mushti I agree that could be the outcome.

This 100%
I’ve been in your shoes ,I took on POA for a relative I was estranged with .it has been an utter shit show ,and my mental health took a battering .this was for a woman who saw her grandchildren approx 3 times in 20 years ..she was always busy …I moved heaven and earth ,clearing her house when I lived at the other end of the country ,selling her house, sorting out 4 rest homes because over 4 years she kept needing to be moved ,buying everything she needs glasses ,dentist ,hospital clothes ..and when u have POA it’s not just about the money ,the care home expect you to take your relative to appointments,to be involved in decisions over care ,speak to doctors and consultants..
I wish to god I’d walked away at the start ,for a woman who looks me in the eye whilst telling staff she doesn’t have any children..”your daughters here to visit you Mary “ no I haven’t got a daughter I never had children “ and despite being stood in a group of 5 people she looks directly at me as she says it ..
my advice is walk away

Yes, but the whole point is that this decision cannot be taken by the OP.

She doesn't have POA so she is not in a position to agree to let this man live in her parents' house on his own once her dad is in care.

You can't apply for someone else-they have to be able to do it!

She doesn't have POA so she is not in a position to agree to let this man live in her parents' house on his own once her dad is in care.

She's surely also not in a position to sell the house is she?

No, she's not. Which is why I, and a number of other posters, have already said that a solicitor needs to get involved.

Agree that the bank won't discuss their finances with OP. BUT.... if she tells them that her mum is terminally ill in a hospice, her father has dementia and that their lodger has acquired their bank card you can guarantee that they'll be looking in to it.....

Whilst my situation isnt as bad at this am I allowed to say I am heartily sick of elderly people leaving a fxxking mess in their wake because they either stick their heads in the sand or cannot be bothered to do anything.

I am the only sibling in the country and its all down to me for both parents. I have POA but that just means it all just comes flying over to ME. Parent just refers anything that they cannot be bothered to me. They arent really capable of doing very much now but its a reletless role and a massive time stealer.

Agree with others. Do not let SS get you doing all the work. You are not the daughter around the corner. I would wash your hands of it. Dad needs to go into a care home urgently. Bob needs to get himself sorted although it might be too late for all that now. I bet he was having the time of his life. No rent, turned your parents against you, didnt like any of the jobs he did and using a bank card for his own ends.

Katmai is 100% correct with their advice.

POA's are taking nearly six months from date of application as there is a huge backlog due to govenment staff 'working from home'. They are literally taking the piss and dont get me started on the Probabte Teams

I would worry it's too late to get POAs set up, do they still have capacity?

In which case it's the court of protection and maybe let their local council deal with it all if you live a long way away?

If your father has dementia you wont get POA. Its too late.
However, the Council can put a charge against the property for his care fees. This fact sheet explains it .
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs10_paying_for_permanent_residential_care_fcs.pdf
It is a very complex area - not only will you not get POA, but you also wont be able to sell the house, as your DF most likely doesn’t have capacity. They will complete a financial assessment to determine what your DF needs to pay towards his care home. Does he have savings? These will be used initially before the house is sold. You could factor in a weekly fee of approx £1000. So thats £52K a year. His income will go towards this fee. Again though, you will not be able to make payments from his bank account for him.
I pay my stepfather’s care home fees from his state pension which is now paid to me as he no longer has capacity. It has taken me 9 months to be awarded Deputyship which means I can now sell his house.
Please dont panic - If youd like some more advice feel free to DM me.

From your posts, OP, I suspect it might be too late to apply for LPA for your father and definitely too late for your mother.

In your shoes I would speak to Social Services - someone must have done the capacity assessment and I would speak to them. Social Services are often glad of a family member to talk to in these situations. If LPA isn't possible due to capacity, they will apply to the Court of Protection for an order to give them LPA type rights (and the ability to sell the house to pay for the care home fees). If your father refuses to move to a care home the council can apply for a Depravation of Liberty Order (DOLs) to force him to comply for his own sake.

They can do all this without you, but I would personally still want to tell them about the Bob situation. As others have said, Bob could potentially challenge his eviction. In your position I would just give it to the council to deal with. They have solicitors, accounts teams and experience. They will charge your parents for their services but this will come out of their savings/capital.

As others have said I think in your shoes I’d be inclined to do nothing and stay out of it. Go visit your mum if you feel like you want / need to do that, but stay out of the rest of it. I know that feels really difficult but your parents haven’t been there for you and have let you down immeasurably. You won’t get any thanks from anyone for helping sort things out and there is no benefit for you. I’m sorry for what you’re going through, look after yourself x