Selling parents home for care fees

[year12clueless]

I need some quick advice- both moral and legal.

I've been largely estranged from my parents for years. Occasional visits if I'm in the area (several hundred mikes from where I live now) and phone calls at Xmas etc. They're fine with this as am I.

They have a 4 bed house somewhere nice. For the past 36 years they have had their friend "Bob" living with them. He moved in when I was a teenager as he was apparently struggling to find somewhere to live. Honestly it was a very strange set up (everyone, including my parents had their own bedroom) and Bob is a little peculiar. However the three of them have lived together happily. Bob is a big reason for the estrangement between us- we never got on, he was sometimes very unpleasant to me (verbally) and my parents never defended me. Honestly they've been happier just the 3 of them.

Mum is now in hospice care and not expected to last much longer. Dad and Bob have been visiting her daily and after a recent visit the hospice called adult protective services. They visited the house and found it in a reasonable condition (Bob was very house proud!) but identified that my Dad's care needs were such that Bob couldn't look after him alone any more. Turns out Dads dementia is bad (this was hidden from me) and Bob had a slight stroke meaning he can't lift or manage dad who is doubly incontinent etc.

I've now been told that the best solution for dad will be a care home.

The issue- apparently the house will need to be sold to fund this. However this will leave Bob homeless. He hasn't even got the full state pension as he never really found a job he liked. He's about 10 years younger than dad and apart from weakness from the stroke he's healthy.

I have seen my parents will. They left the house to me but Bob has the right to stay in it until he dies. However they didn't think about this situation. Bob has never paid any rent or anything so there's not even a rental contract.

Honestly I dislike Bob intensely. However I can't see him homeless. But I'm not sure what the legal position is. I've spoken to the council who refused to consider him in their calculations and just kept telling me the house should be sold.

-I need to not upset mum in her final weeks

• do the best thing for dad (care home)
• hold my nose and try to help Bob

Does anyone know what the legal situation is with regard to Bob? I can't really afford a solicitor ATM and whilst mum and dad have money I can't access it (Bob can though as he's got their bank card!)

I spoke to Age Uk and the woman said this was new to her (!) and she'd speak to someone and call me back but they haven't. All this will take time to set up and so I need to start making decisions now.

Has anyone got any information or advice?

for you OP

Reading all of your posts I’d be very tempted to step back for your wellbeing and work on getting POA in the background as that can take months. Let everything else happen.

Google the "Let them" theory by Mel Robbins...

Adding to my previous post, Age uk factsheet 38 has the bit about 'discretion to disregard'.

However if you don't want to bust a gut for Bob, that's understandable.

I agree. What would they be doing if you weren't around/ if your parents had no kids? You didn't choose any of this, they did.

You obviously have lots more on your plate to prioritise. x

Google the "Let them" theory by Mel Robbins... brilliant podcast on transforming your mindset to situations of other people's making and ultimately outside of your control.

This. Forget about Bob

I think given the circumstances, the likelihood of Bob being organised enough to sort out the paperwork, get signatures witnessed etc to obtain POA is remote possibility.

The Social Services are very able to sort out the sale of a property to pay for residential care. They are experienced with complicated legal, financial and social situations.

I would let the Social Services know the set up regarding Bob paying bills etc and any other concerns you may have regarding him, then leave the situation to SS to investigate, monitor and manage.

You have loving, kind people who have been your support to focus your energy and time upon.

You are a good person to even care to want toget involved.

I'm going to go against the grain of the thread to offer another possible scenario - which you probably won't prefer, but which should be considered.

You say your DF has a generous pension, and I'd guess that the odds are that he has savings as well.

Bob is presumably now at pension age. He'd be entitled to housing benefit (or housing element of UC/pension credit) and pension credit without any working requirements.

There's a good chance that your DF's pension, plus gradual releases from his cash savings, plus housing benefit level rent from Bob, would pay care home fees for at least a couple of years, after which, if he survives, the house might need to be sold - but most people don't live for longer than a couple of years in care homes - it sounds as if he's quite impaired.

You'd then have the stress of a life tenant in the house you own, which would be difficult depending on how Bob's old age goes. But it would be what your parents wanted, and although he's had some (completely understandable) flack on this thread, it does sound as if he's worked pretty hard for his free bed and board over the last few years.

The problem of course if it gets to that point is that a four bedroom house is completely unsuitable for a single man. I'd be inclined to offer him a large cash sum from the house sale to get him to sign a deed of variation.

Bob can't legally access their finances unless he has Power of Attorney. I'm assuming the local authority has assessed his capacity re finances? I'm also guessing you don't have POA given your historical relationship? You need to cancel the bank card. Do not give him any notice of you doing this as your parents' finances need to be protected. Once cancelled, I suppose if you had the money, you could give him a financial helping hand.

Your dad might nit gave capacity for some decisions but this does not necessarily mean he can't stay at home. Ask the local authority for further help and explain the situation with Bob having the bank card.

Is it not in your best interests for Bob to stay there? That way your parents house doesn’t get sold and then when Bob does you will inherit the house.

@TotalOverhaul I agree a disaster waiting to happen.

I am aware that in reality the OPG, Social Services and the Courts actually take a very very long time to remove POA once granted allowing a lot of financial abuse to occur.

Bob is getting a state pension so is in his late 60s at least. He has clearly been managing bills etc. and had access to accounts etc. To the OPG and Social Services he is a potential POA. Given his age it is unlikely they would prosecute Bob for financial abuse.

If the op wants to walk away the reality is Bob could become POA.

I highly recommend that you phone The Alzheimer's Society helpline on
0333 150 3456. They have legal expertise and knowledge of the way social services work with dementia. They can also offer you emotional support.

This is the councils problem. I know you want to be kind, but please don't buy him a flat or anything like that. That's not your responsibility. Even my parents or in laws would see their own grandchildren on the streets before they offered such a gift, or even a months rent. I can't think of one single living person that loves me that would offer what you are thinking of offering Bob.

Bob has been a reckless twat IMO not thinking about his future here

Dunno look to me that bobs played the long game for his future. Get the kid out the way, take control of all the finances. Just a few more steps and he's home free.

I'd the OP walks away who forces the sale of the house and sees to all of this? Does the council have a team who deal with stuff like this?

He may not be just a licensee; he may have an equitable interest in the property. In some cases courts have held the entire property be turned over 100% to the person claiming estoppel (although that seems unlikely in this case). He could very much estop any sale indefinitely. It depends on who said what to whom. Either way, Bob will have to get legal advice.

it will not be up to SS to balance Bob’s rights; that’s for the courts.

I'd do three things:

One - go to the bank and explain the situation. Tell them about your mum, and also that your dad now has dementia. Tell them that nobody has POA.

Two - tell the bank that Bob has your parents' card and has been accessing their bank account.

Three - approach social services and say that you are not in a position to take any financial decisions regarding selling the house as it is not yours and you do not have POA. Suggest to them that a solicitor is appointed to take that role on behalf of your parents. The ideal solicitor would be the one who drew up their will. Someone has to do it, and it can't be you because neither of your parents are mentally capable of signing the paperwork to give you POA. Tell social services that Bob is not your responsibility.

You need to hand this over, and you won't have to pay solicitor's fees because they can take that out of your parents' funds. Let the professionals deal with it. And don't let social services pressgang you into doing it, because they will try very hard to make you take it on. Tell them no.

If you don't have POA it's going to be difficult to speak with the bank unless you can put your dad on the phone to them - I speak from experience here. You can possibly get a card stopped without your dad's input but you'd have to tell them either to not issue a new one, or to send it to you (to avoid Bob opening it) and
I very much doubt they would do that without POA or 3rd party access or your dad's say so.

The most pressing issue I would say is not the bank card but how your dad's care will be paid for if he's going to a care home immediately given that no one apart from Bob can access his funds if he has any and POA or deputyship will take a few months. Social services or a solicitor should be able to advise on this. I know social services have a finances department as I dealt with them when mum went to a care home so there probably is someone who deals with this sort of thing.

Either decide you want to deal with this and get legal advice and advice from social services or walk away - I'd do the latter.

You owe Bob nothing, he's a freeloader and probable financial abuser and is probably about to become a massive PITA.

OP in your situation I would wash my hands of this. You don't have Power of Attorney so you can't do anything at the moment anyway.

Your dad has severe dementia and if he is deemed to have lost 'capacity' he will not be able to do a POA. You say your mother has a short time to live, so it's unlikely that that the POA process would be completed before she dies, putting it bluntly - it takes many weeks, possibly months.

Social Services presumably contacted you as next of kin as they assume you will now want to step in. But you don't have to. If you tell them you're not going to, they will take over and get a Court of Protection order to access your parents' finances.

If your dad has indeed lost capacity (so POA not possible), the only way for you to access his funds would be via a CoP order too. Again, this is a lengthy process - months, not weeks.

Given the relationship you have with your parents (and in particular Bob) this all sounds like you would be entering a thankless world of pain. It is an option hand it over to Social Services.

I agree with PP’s that it’s unlikely that you’ll be able to get POA for your Dad now as he’ll be deemed not to have capacity if his dementia’s become advanced- I got POA for my Dad a couple of years ago and you need various affidavits stating that they have mental capacity.

Re. The bank card. It’s a huge pain, but I think you do need to report it to their bank as Bob has far too much power over their finances. At this stage, your Dad can’t give him permission to use it due to his dementia and your Mum is also extremely unwell.

Unless of course you decide to walk away from the whole sorry mess, which you’d be perfectly entitled to do. All three of them have been awful towards you. 💐

You need to hand this over, and you won't have to pay solicitor's fees because they can take that out of your parents' funds. Let the professionals deal with it.

@Redaska has excellent advice. Bob can’t blame you if a solicitor deals with the situation, they’ll be following the letter of the law…plus watching Bob to ensure that he doesn’t empty accounts, etc.

well if you get adult social care to take responsibility, you can bet your bottom dollar they will go after Bob like shit off a shovel, which makes it much easier and less stressful than OP having to take out some kind of private prosecution.

Adult social services want paying. They want to make sure that no assets are being stripped, so they can make fair adjustments. If the house or their money is being abused, they wont stand for it, and they will persue for that to be repaid.

Even if Bob HAD managed to get POA it wouldnt have given him free rein over their money, it is ONLY for paying the parents bills and only for the benefit of the dad. clearing his bank account is not to the dad's benefit

The bank will not want to talk to you about your parents' finances because you don't have POA, but they will certainly be interested if you tell them that a third party is accessing their money. It is their duty to protect their customers from financial abuse, and if the bank has received no authority from your parents for him to withdraw funds, then he is acting fraudelently and stealing their money.

@year12clueless i hope you manage to get sorted, this is a horrible situation for you. From what you’ve said, it sounds as though your parents should have savings somewhere. If so it might be that the savings plus your dad’s pension could cover the fees for some time. I had a parent with dementia in a care home, the savings paid for the first couple of years, and the council assessed the pension (also a good final salary scheme) and left a small amount of that for weekly spending and the rest went toward fees. Once the savings went below the limit (maybe £20k?) then it went to house sale level.

Hope this helps, and good luck. And a bit of a hug as I think you need one.

Bob will have seen this coming, unless of course there is a more recent will that He pulls out if his pocket.
I am guessing he has been getting cash back for as long as he's had access to the bank card.
This probable filching needs to end.
You must remove the bank card, get POA & take a look at your Parent's bank statements. If there us clear over spending (ex 100's spent in Waitrose) you will find that you no longer feel inclined to protect Bob !!!