Selling parents home for care fees

[year12clueless]

I need some quick advice- both moral and legal.

I've been largely estranged from my parents for years. Occasional visits if I'm in the area (several hundred mikes from where I live now) and phone calls at Xmas etc. They're fine with this as am I.

They have a 4 bed house somewhere nice. For the past 36 years they have had their friend "Bob" living with them. He moved in when I was a teenager as he was apparently struggling to find somewhere to live. Honestly it was a very strange set up (everyone, including my parents had their own bedroom) and Bob is a little peculiar. However the three of them have lived together happily. Bob is a big reason for the estrangement between us- we never got on, he was sometimes very unpleasant to me (verbally) and my parents never defended me. Honestly they've been happier just the 3 of them.

Mum is now in hospice care and not expected to last much longer. Dad and Bob have been visiting her daily and after a recent visit the hospice called adult protective services. They visited the house and found it in a reasonable condition (Bob was very house proud!) but identified that my Dad's care needs were such that Bob couldn't look after him alone any more. Turns out Dads dementia is bad (this was hidden from me) and Bob had a slight stroke meaning he can't lift or manage dad who is doubly incontinent etc.

I've now been told that the best solution for dad will be a care home.

The issue- apparently the house will need to be sold to fund this. However this will leave Bob homeless. He hasn't even got the full state pension as he never really found a job he liked. He's about 10 years younger than dad and apart from weakness from the stroke he's healthy.

I have seen my parents will. They left the house to me but Bob has the right to stay in it until he dies. However they didn't think about this situation. Bob has never paid any rent or anything so there's not even a rental contract.

Honestly I dislike Bob intensely. However I can't see him homeless. But I'm not sure what the legal position is. I've spoken to the council who refused to consider him in their calculations and just kept telling me the house should be sold.

-I need to not upset mum in her final weeks

• do the best thing for dad (care home)
• hold my nose and try to help Bob

Does anyone know what the legal situation is with regard to Bob? I can't really afford a solicitor ATM and whilst mum and dad have money I can't access it (Bob can though as he's got their bank card!)

I spoke to Age Uk and the woman said this was new to her (!) and she'd speak to someone and call me back but they haven't. All this will take time to set up and so I need to start making decisions now.

Has anyone got any information or advice?

@year12clueless IANAL but without disclosing my personal situation what I can say is Bob has legal rights and is potentially a Licensee under Estoppel.

It it highly likely you will need to lawfully evict Bob right up to having the bailiffs remove him. This will make him homeless and the Council will then be responsible for housing him. Yes it will be distressing but this may be the only lawful way to do it.

You need legal advice asap.

• You need to apply for both health and welfare POAs for your parents as a matter of urgency. Without this so can’t see how you can sell the property.
• You need to update the Land Register so your email is one of the 3 permitted contact addresses https://customerhelp.landregistry.gov.uk/guide-external-start/?guideid=6bdf3624-b982-eb11-a812-000d3ad48f95
• You are going to have to get yourself up to speed with your parents finances, again the POA is essential to do this.
• WRT your parents will, if the house is sold before they die the provision for Bob fails.

I know this will all cost you upfront money but you can claim these costs back from your parents e.g. legal fees to evict Bob, sell house etc as they are not your debts.

Wow. This is really really helpful. Thanks for taking the time

Just having a list and a plan is what I need. I've been a bit frozen since the calls and I know I need to do something but it's dredging up a ton of unhappiness which hasn't helped.

DH and I will sit down tonight and try to figure out how we can get everything set up and paid for. He's pretty angry on my behalf as he said it feels like one more time they've failed me which has made me sad.

There's a photo from our wedding in the spare room. Me, DH, my parents, his parents. Dad looks really grumpy in it as I'd said that Bob couldn't be in the picture as well. Apparently he'd "helped raise me" and I was making him feel unwelcome. I mean.... he was.

Sounds an awful situation I would worry that if your F already has dementia you cannot now set up POA. I agree with everyone, somehow you need to cancel the bank card. Has your F been appointed a social worker? I think I'd contact adult social care over this.

I believe Bob is responsible for himself and you will have to sell and disregard his needs if you need to pay care home fees. If you look at this page from the Alzheimer's Society they do say that the only person who can remain in the home (thereby stopping the sale for care home fees) are the following:

• a husband, wife, civil partner or partner
• a close relative over the age of 60
• a dependent child
• a relative who is disabled or incapacitated.

So they have to be a relative. We looked into this fairly recently as DM had a friend stay with her who was almost taking up residence and we knew that probably DM would need to go to a care home so I was concerned the friend was going to say the house couldn't be sold. The situation resolved itself for us and she moved out, but Bob sounds more difficult. I do believe though that you don't have to take Bob into account. If he is a relative though that is different.

Age UK also have similar advice on their page, but I think in Bob's case the same advice applies. I think your best bet is to talk to your Local Authority who will do the means test and explain the situation and say that Bob would be homeless and other issues (he's had a stroke, not enough funds/pension) and see what they advise. My view is that they would disregard Bob as he has no claim or right to be there.

Surely if the house needs selling to pay for fees and your father has dementia then 'the state' will step in and make this happen. I wouldn't imagine this will be a 5min process and the reality is your mum will have passed on so doesn't need to hear this. Depending on the relationship between your father and Bob they might view him as a negative influence in which case he could well be banned from visiting your dad.
In your situation I would get your father admitted for some 'respite care'. The reality is he will be unlikely to be sent home and as his dementia progresses (it will) the care home is probably the best place for him.
Whilst I hate lieing my feelings are that in this situation I'd fob everyone off as long as I could then let the courts decide. I don't even know if the money from the sale would come to you, at least not whilst either parent is alive. Surely 'the state' would appoint someone with POA to act in their best interest. Bob will have to become independent. If he's vulnerable (rather than simply odd) he will probably be offered some sort of accomodation by the Council at some stage, maybe in a sheltered complex if he's 50+ with a disability. Social Services are the ones to sort this, not you though they will of course ask for your input.

I need to go down don't I?
This will be dreadful.
I need to see my mum which is a whole separate trauma post, and start sorting things out. I'll need to take time off work and find a solicitor and make appointments with social workers and see Bob and my Dad. This will not go well.

I've taken on board everyone's comments about me not owing Bob anything which makes me feel better. He's an adult who made no effort to secure his future in over 35 years. Neither parent is competent to help him now. It's all been so sudden for me (although I recognise Bob may have seen this coming). I do need to speak to their bank. FML.

If your Dad's dementia is bad, he won't be capable of giving Power of Attorney and it'll have to be an application via Court of Protection - sadly that's a much longer winded thing to sort.

If the card Bob has isn't in his name, I'd contact the bank/building society and tell them you believe someone has your parents card and explain the situation with regard to Mum's health and Dad's dementia. They might be able to help.

I see you are also going for Lasting Power of Attorney, which you'll need to sell the place. Note that, depending on your parents' finances you may be able to get this in place for free - you do not need to use a solicitor. We did all our own forms (which are online on gov.uk) and didn't pay anything as my parents were example from charges as they were on benefits. Exemptions from charges depends on your parents' finances (not yours). The exemption form is here. and that tells you what qualifies them to be free.

you haven't actually said if your dad has agreed to go into a care home and whether or not he's deemed to have capacity to make his own choices??

On the other hand while disabled father is still at home and Bob is the one doing the shopping and caring for him stopping the card could leave OPs father very hungry.

This is helpful but I fear they will be too well off. Dad worked for a big company for all his working life and retired on a final salary pension and mum inherited from her parents as an only child. They've been supporting a lovely life for the 3 of them for the past 15 years since dad retired. The money is presumably somewhere but I've no clue where.

I agree with this approach if it is at all possible. If you refuse to step in on financial matters and say you are estranged, then surely the state will have to sort out the sale and what happens to Bob.

That might be hopelessly naive of me though, but presumably the situation must arise often where there are no dependents or they are estranged.

Yes, exactly. Timing in this situation is key. If OP can get her Father admitted for respite, as previous poster suggested, that could work.

@Iwasafool - exactly. If I cancel the card I don't know how long everything will take to get set up and Dad is still at home. Bills need to be paid. I can't do anything hasty.

I can't give any better advice than some of the very good advice which has already been offered. I just wanted to say don't feel guilty about Bob. He quite happily negatively affected you and your parents relationship as long as it meant he had a roof over his head. He's happy for your father to receive sub par (or no) care, by wanting him to stay at home so that he can have a roof over his head. If it is in your fathers best interests to go into a care home yet Bob prevents this by saying he can take care of your Dad just so he can have somewhere to live, well that's really bloody awful, selfish and quite calculating of Bob.

Why should you care about this leech? Don't give him a single penny, he's effectively had thousands off your parents over the years.

I agree about the bank card - that needs to be stopped somehow very urgently. At the moment neither of your parents wills are relevant to this. Once one of your parents passes, then the Will may come into play and could make things even more difficult ( depending on the exact wording)

Please, see a lawyer about this, as soon as you can. People on here can only give you some information and you can't be sure which is correct and which isn't

You may be too late to get a POA, from what you have said too. The Granters of a POA have to be of sound mind and able to understand what they are signing (granting). They also take months to be certified by

Have you told the LA that you don't have a POA and that you cannot therefore sell the house until both parents have died and the property comes to you under their Wills?

You won't be able to change all their outgoings either without either a POA or a death certificate. You have been left with a complete and utter minefield to sort out, I'm sorry.

Can you just walk away and leave it all? Don't know if that is possible ( so again, see a lawyer) You'd obviously lose any possible inheritance, but if it is possible, it might be better than all the stress you are about to encounter?

If Bob has rights because of an estoppel, those rights already exist, and are not impacted by the death of the OP’s parents.

If- they made a representation to Bob that he would have some interest in the property on their death - and he relied on it to his detriment (not hard to prove) - then they are “estopped” from changing their minds, for example by selling the property, without providing for him.

it’s a very loose doctrine but Bob will need his own legal advice and he’s going to have to work very hard to enforce his rights; nobody is going to prevent the sale unless he stands up for himself.

Check with the bank. Usually when you lose a card or report it stolen or whatever, you dont need to set up direct debits abd standing orders again. They remain in place, it's just a new card you get (and PIN if it's stolen i think). You'll need a new card and PIN otherwise Bob will just continue to use the card. And he will, how else will he be paying for food and other essentials.

In your position I would be doing the following

1. speak to adult social care about your concerns, re Bob clearing out the finances. You are obviously in touch with them regarding their concerns over your dad. They may have some advise about the bank situaion. You could just report your dads card stolen in the short term, especially if they are likely to put him in a home quickly. Having home care gives Bob more time to work out his plans.
2. Is your mum in full capacity mentally? Your dad has dementia and it is too late for POA for him, but POA for your mum, if they have a joint account, would give you access.
3. you need to apply for a deputyship for one or both parents if they do not have capacity, and you want to sort the issues out. If not, and there is no POA in place, adult social care will step in and make decisions, although they will like to consult with the family. Im not sure in practice how that works regarding access to finances etc. Probably best that you do it.
4. Bob is not your problem. He may become the councils problem, but again, thats not your problem. If he doesnt work he has been mooching off your parents for decades. That was his choice. Your parents cannot gift him the house or any money because now they need to pay for care, it will be seen as a deprivation of assets. He has had plenty of time to have prepared for his future. It may well be that he has been rinsing their bank account forever, but given he has no money and is about to be homeless, you are probably best just drawing a line under that and moving forwards. Your number one priority now is getting legal powers to administer the bank accounts. Giving him their card is actually illegal. The bank MAY block the card on that info alone, and that avoids the account itself being frozen. When you go down see if you can find any bank statements, and who is the supplier for services.

good luck OP

actually this advice is spot on.

Op you would incredibly selfless in spite of circumstances and I applaud you for that, however you need to remove emotions from this as far as Bob, or frankly your parents are concerned.

Bob doesn’t sound like he’s given 2 shits about you and you owe him nothing in return. I suspect once your mum passes any upheaval for you dad will expedite his passing too, what you need to think about is not just today and tomorrow but what next? The council are actually giving themselves another problem by kicking him out but that’s not your problem.

you need to protect yourself, Bob sounds like he’s got a way of getting on his feet, so you should let him. What is the alternative? Bob can’t help care for your father, your mother is gravely ill. What if the money runs out who pays for the care then if Bob is living in your house?

from a spiteful pov I say get yourself in a position to gain whatever you can (deserve) from this situation.

I would also recommend posting this over on Reddit legaluk as it’s a really good resource for legal advice in unusual circumstances like this.

For the moment you can forget about the will and its contents... it doesnt come into effect until your parents are both dead. If the house has to be sold for care home fees that will resolve the dilemma of 'Bob's future accommodation anyway.
Priorities are to sort out who has access to the bank account, and if possible power of attorney.
Legal advice and a firm hand going forward.

As neither of your parents has died Bob has no claim on the property. If one parent died it would likely go immediately to the other parent until they passed and then Bobs interest to be resident till he dies is enforceable, not before both have passed away.

Potentially if it can be shown that Bob is a vulnerable person )ie some SEN or similar) you may be able to avoid immediate sale of the property, but I would have thought you don't want him to have the right to stay in a property till he dies which you would have responsibility to maintain and likely pay bills as well even though technically he should take that on as you say yourself he does not have that income.

You need to apply for a financial power of attorney - likely through the courts now as there is unlikely to be capacity for either parent to sign off on it from what you are saying (although this too will need signing off medically via GPs) that will then allow you to have an appted POA to manage their finances - the court may appt you, a social worker or even a solicitor etc, but they will have to keep accounts and report annually to the court on what is being done. Once they are appt the property can be sold, as a POA no one will be able to provide for Bob from the finances. I think Bob needs to be dealt with separately with social services and some assistance in claiming what he is entitled to from benefits etc, but fundamentally he is not your problem and as mean as it sounds the system needs to deal with him. Personally I would have said even double incontinent can be dealt with via home visits regularly and I think social services are concerned that Bob is abusing the situation in some way, another reason to have his own care plan and SS worker etc to represent him as these deal with your Father only.

I would get yourself some decent legal advice around the POA and also the Bob situation

From what OP has said, the issue is that there aren’t any standing orders or direct debits in place. Bob has worked very hard to make sure he controls the bills, the food and therefore the money. He’s tried to make himself indispensable and control everything. It’s classic abuser behaviour, even if there has been no physical abuse or blackmail. I bet there has been financial abuse.

The other thing to consider is Health POA as if there isn't one in place then SS make the decisions and there is no requirement for you to be involved or even have your opinion taken into account no matter what they say