Selling parents home for care fees

[year12clueless]

I need some quick advice- both moral and legal.

I've been largely estranged from my parents for years. Occasional visits if I'm in the area (several hundred mikes from where I live now) and phone calls at Xmas etc. They're fine with this as am I.

They have a 4 bed house somewhere nice. For the past 36 years they have had their friend "Bob" living with them. He moved in when I was a teenager as he was apparently struggling to find somewhere to live. Honestly it was a very strange set up (everyone, including my parents had their own bedroom) and Bob is a little peculiar. However the three of them have lived together happily. Bob is a big reason for the estrangement between us- we never got on, he was sometimes very unpleasant to me (verbally) and my parents never defended me. Honestly they've been happier just the 3 of them.

Mum is now in hospice care and not expected to last much longer. Dad and Bob have been visiting her daily and after a recent visit the hospice called adult protective services. They visited the house and found it in a reasonable condition (Bob was very house proud!) but identified that my Dad's care needs were such that Bob couldn't look after him alone any more. Turns out Dads dementia is bad (this was hidden from me) and Bob had a slight stroke meaning he can't lift or manage dad who is doubly incontinent etc.

I've now been told that the best solution for dad will be a care home.

The issue- apparently the house will need to be sold to fund this. However this will leave Bob homeless. He hasn't even got the full state pension as he never really found a job he liked. He's about 10 years younger than dad and apart from weakness from the stroke he's healthy.

I have seen my parents will. They left the house to me but Bob has the right to stay in it until he dies. However they didn't think about this situation. Bob has never paid any rent or anything so there's not even a rental contract.

Honestly I dislike Bob intensely. However I can't see him homeless. But I'm not sure what the legal position is. I've spoken to the council who refused to consider him in their calculations and just kept telling me the house should be sold.

-I need to not upset mum in her final weeks

• do the best thing for dad (care home)
• hold my nose and try to help Bob

Does anyone know what the legal situation is with regard to Bob? I can't really afford a solicitor ATM and whilst mum and dad have money I can't access it (Bob can though as he's got their bank card!)

I spoke to Age Uk and the woman said this was new to her (!) and she'd speak to someone and call me back but they haven't. All this will take time to set up and so I need to start making decisions now.

Has anyone got any information or advice?

He hasn't paid rent for years, so I assume he has a very healthy bank account. You cannot feel sorry for him, nor be responsible for an adult. Get a power of attorney and put your dad is a good home. Sell the house, give him 12 weeks to find.somewhere.

Regarding the bank card arrangement, I recently contacted the bank on behalf of my elderly friend. He was using his debit card quite unsafely and had a very large balance in his current account.
The bank advised me that when he handed his card and pin number over to strangers etc he was actually invalidating the terms of the card and wouldn't be covered in the case of a fraud.
They agreed to transfer a significant balance to a savings account and keep his current account at a safe level.
They also advised that they can provide a card for a carer which is something I'll keep in mind for the future. Such a card may be suitable for Bob.

It’s a strange and shit situation for you to be in OP but without POA there’s not even anything you CAN do. You’re not in a position where you can decide to sell the house so potentially that’s a load of hassle you don’t have to deal with

Is it likely that, faced with the prospect of a homeless Bob, your mother would change her will in his benefit?

I think it will all be taken out of your hands soon. Your father has not got capacity to change his will or make a POA. I think your dad will be under Court of Protection and they will make all the financial decisions and general welfare for your father. Court of Protection takes a fair time to set up so you need to get the wheels in motion. And somehow get the bank card away from Bob. Have your parents got a solicitor that could step in and take over? It sounds like they have the money to set this up. I think you need to make an appointment with a solicitor anyway for some general advice.

As someone who also has parent related trauma (and somewhat familiar with an unwanted lodger with said parents) put it down.

Don't just walk away, run. None of them are your problem. I understand the overwhelming feeling that you need to be the one to deal with it, it's that whole "but they're family" and "normal families work this way" mindset we grow up with. But they are not family and it certainly isn't a normal one so you don't need to try and treat it as such. Put yourself and your real family (the one you chose!) first and leave the rest for dust. It does not make you a bad person to practise self care in face of people who cared properly for you.

I did wonder myself…

The OP says her mother is in her final weeks so can't really be told anything that would distress her.

You owe Bob nothing & equally your parents nothing!

I'd leave it to "the state" to sort out tbh.

Obviously your parents thought enough of Bob to not want him homeless.

Although how would he afford to live in their house?

Equally he has mooched off them for 36yrs & some might say that that's enough!

I would question the bank card.

Why does he have it?

I thought that the handing over of cards could be a sign of abuse?

Why not add him to the account or give him POA?

@mushti thanks. Interesting info as I said IANAL.

I agree it will be upto the courts to balance the rights of Bob and OPs parents.However, Social Services have a vested interest in both parties a) funding from OPs parents for care and b) providing Bob with a home if he is made homeless.

Why not add him to the account or give him POA? Because the OP's mother is too ill and her dad no longer has capacity. The OP can't do it because she has no POA either. In any case, he has no right to any of their money.

Sadly this wont help We are applying for POA for my parents Once submitted forms take 4 weeks to be uploaded then up to 20 weeks before they are registered ! Ridiculous amount of time Your parents need to have capacity to complete POA applications .

Just wanted to say, don't despair! This seems like such a knotty tangled problem at the outset but you just need to get through one step at a time. And also, remember that once its done, its done ( apart from your emotions etc) the resolution of some sort will have been reached and you will be free of feeling up to your neck in it.
None of it is ideal, but I think its like a valley, you have plunge down, cross it and then eventually you are on the upward slope and on the other side.
So in the spirit of step by step,

Write a summary/timeline so it makes it easy for people to get the picture, It can be hard trying to explain it all and might come out a bit confusing . So a clear (unemotional ) timeline or summery is the best idea, indicating who is who.

First and foremost See a solicitor, asap even if its just for a consultation
Bring someone with you or record what they say so you can refer back as emotions can get in the way of listening to the whole thing.
Ask them what their plan would be.
I would suggest either Lasting P of A or ask about how to apply yourself to the Court of protection.
Talk to local Age Concern or similar about the local policies on care homes, respite.
Find out who your parents GP is and make sure that its you , not bob down as next of kin. This affects who you can talk to medically.
Whatever happens your Dad needs a long term plan for his well being, what ever that involves.
Talk to Social worker/GP and see if they can assess your Dad. and help you make this plan.

Consider respite for your dad whilst you sort out the house/Bob.

Maybe write to your parents bank, explaining the situation, as some one said you don't want your dad to suddenly be without food/electricity, or living with a very resentful Bob, but maybe alert them to the fact that there could be sudden unexplained withdrawals.

All of this depends on what your solicitor says its just a suggestion. and I'm sure the various experts (gp etc) may have better input. Only you can know what is the most urgent or if this is the path you want to follow.

Maybe at least try the solicitor's advice before deciding to quit entirely as you may well get drawn back into it anyway and it may have become a bigger, more urgent mess,
The option to step away will still be there but perhaps arming yourself with information that you may need. this way gives you more choice.

An equitable solution would be for Bob to live in the property until death, and the LA take a charge over it to cover care home fees for the OP's father. When Bob dies the property is sold and the debt to the LA (fees + interest) is settled. If there's anything left it goes to the OP.

The OP could even suggest that. Doubtless the LA could do without having to find accomodation for an elderly man who already has a home; and the accounting can be made whole in the end.

It does leave open who pays for property maintenance in the mean time though.

I agree with those who advise you to stay out of it and let social services deal with the money and house situation. They do it all the time and know how it works. Plus there is a slight danger that if Bob has been skimming off money and you don't know or don't do something to stop it then you might be considered to be in collusion with him. Just stay out of it all together. Worst case scenario of getting involved is that it costs you money with travel and solicitor's fees, worst case scenario of not getting involved is that you lose some of your inheritance (which it doesn't sound like you care about anyway). Best case scenario of not getting involved is that the house is sold before your Dad dies so you won't be responsible for looking after the house for Bob to live in for the rest of his life.

Honestly, they made choices over the years and they are still choosing him over you, you don't owe them anything.

I wouldn't be worrying about Bob. He's had plenty of time to see first hand the situation unfolding and make plans for himself but has done nothing.
Do what makes your life easiest.
And get the card stopped.

This is a very strange set up but agree Bob is not your problem, however I can see how is can get messy. I’d be sorting the legal side and refuse to get involved with Bob any further.

What a mess. Parents who don’t sort out their affairs in a timely fashion are EXTREMELY selfish, imo.

There’s a lot for any one person to deal with here, even without the emotional side of things to deal with. If you do decide to do something/ anything, it seems to me that you can drop the guilt around Bob because there are no two ways around the fact that the house MUST be sold. Whether you do or don’t do anything, this will happen. The council will see that it will happen, as they are vested in recouping care home fees. They and you are on the same side. Bob really is neither here nor there in this regard. You and the council should help each other. Tell them you’re willing and ready to do whatever to access funds to pay for your parents’ care, but you don’t know how to go about things. I mean, what would they do if your parents had no children? That’s what they should be doing now.

Get rid of Bob.

i only came on here to say - bob is NOT your problem. I would not even consider him in the issue

you do whats best for you and your parents - its that simple

@mushti Yes I wondered if this may be a way forward

Many PPs are overlooking that Bob has a right to live in the house during his own lifetime

You need to talk to the bank regarding the cash card. OP I believe the POA needs to be arranged if your dad has the mental capacity if not it will need to go to the Court of Protection (which is a longer process). Please if I’m wrong someone correct me.

However, if you want to just walk away from the whole situation, don’t feel guilty. My parents put alcohol and pubs before me (along with all the violence), took me a long time and a lot of therapy to understand that I owed them nothing in their old age. Dad has carers 4 times a day, I visit weekly, but I won’t be at the beck and call of the care agency. There is too much that has gone on in the past.

Bob will be classed as homeless and it is up to the local authority to provide appropriate housing for him. He’s NOT your responsibility! He’s a grown adult who will need to take care of himself.

When a person no longer has capacity and there is no POA in place, a solicitor can sort out all the legal paperwork and take over. That's what I had to arrange after my DM died. She'd had POA over my uncle's affairs and he no longer had capacity to sign POA over to me. I went to a solicitor and they took over, paid all his care home fees, bills and their own fees out of his money.

We don't know whether the house has to be sold. It depends on the parents' other assets, the pension and the father's life expectancy.

@sheworemellowyellow Do you have a POA already in place for yourself?