Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

[twoandcooplease]

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

Part of me believes she's guilty but I also have trouble believing it.

(I've followed the trial closely.)

I'm not sure why I have such reluctance to accept the result. I wondered if it was bias - because she looks like me (white, middle class, blonde) and killers hardly ever look like that (I know saying this doesn't reflect well on me but it is what it is).

I do also think that some of the evidence against her is flimsy (I'd found the same links on the scientific evidence that someone posted above.)

I think time will tell.

Either we're going to find out she's killed more babies as the police examine the 4000 babies she's cared for in the past, or new evidence will come to light that contradicts that.

The trouble with that Science on Trial article is that it seems to be based on second hand reports on the evidence after the fact, and frankly the tone is all a bit excitable and unprofessional. The defence got experts to go through the actual evidence but couldn't use their reports, which obviously indicates that their experts didn't support their case.

this. People parrot about “circumstancial evidence” because they watched the Bill or something 20 years ago and it was talked about there. The huge volume of cases, the amount of similarities between the cases, the fact the cases started when she started on the ward, ended when she stopped, the paperwork and notes found at her home, the fact she was the only person who was present at all incidents, is a lot more than “circumstancial”.

She has faced a fair trial and rightly had a defence fully paid for by the state where her own side were not only able to thoroughly cross examine the crown witnesses on the evidence, would have been able to call expert witnesses of their own to rebut the crown case. They did not call any such witnesses as I recall.

to the people who think she was innocent, who killed and harmed these babies then? My understanding was they were premature with some of the complexities that brings, but there was no reason to believe they’d all die, and indeed the hospital usually only had 3 deaths a year. What’s your explanation then for what happened?

The other thing I find odd is, she has nothing in her background to suggest that she has anti-social personality disorder. She has had a stable life, is conscientious, social support, and a good relationship with family and friends.

I read something from a criminologist saying that they have never come across a murderer like her before because she doesn't fit the usual profiles. I wish I could find the quote.

Dr Shoham Das, criminal psychologist, said:

“One thing that really strikes me about Lucy Letby’s case is that there is no known history of previous offending, specifically no known history of previous violence.

"Having assessed hundreds of mentally distressed offenders I would say that’s exceptionally rare. It’s unlike anything I’ve ever seen in my career before."

From: https://www.itv.com/news/central/2023-08-18/the-quiet-cul-de-sac-in-hereford-where-killer-nurse-lucy-letby-grew-up

I'm not saying that she didn't do it because of what some criminologist thinks, but that it is strange.

It shows I suppose that on occasion some people are literally just wired wrong, its nothing to do with their history

I am very much of the view that people are created out of their attachment development with parents and their experiences as children but occasionally perhaps it doesnt apply

I dont buy into the theory about her being a difficult delivery and overbearing parents and this contributing, its almost nothing, it seems irrelevant.

Unless of course the reality is she didnt have the uprbringing thats been claimed.

Those notes she wrote are all very weird just a complete jumble really. I would be surprised if they are the product of a ‘normal” mind. I guess we will hear more tomorrow.

@Giraffe75 and @hammie46i someone else up thread (or was it another LL thread?) already posted that link. It's easy to say a scientist has questioned the evidence when all you have is an anonymous website set up for the purpose of questioning the LL trial. How can you trust some random who may or may not be a scientist over actual doctors and experts?

And as a lay person (albeit married to a scientist) even I can see plenty of holes in what has been said on that site. It's hardly peer reviewed research, is it?

Plus if he was that great why wasn’t he called as a defence witness?

The drugs that get classed as 'Controlled' are due to their addictive nature and tradeability.

Not due to them being inherently more dangerous than any other drug in the cupboard.

After all paracetamol is also fatal in overdose. And she didn't even need drugs - she could do it with a puff of air or some extra baby milk.

The number of perinatal deaths in 2017 and 2018 was higher than in 2015 and 2016, but Lucy Letby was not on the ward in these years

where did they get that from? The news I saw the other day said there had only been one death since she left (admittedly I think they don’t care for the very sickest babies any more).

I think this case is scary to us all because no one would have looked at her and thought she was capable of such monstrous acts. We all try to imagine a motive because we think, how can someone commit these crimes for no reason whatsoever?

Personally, I think there is quite an obvious motive here - jealousy. From the sounds of it, she hadn't had much experience in terms of romantic relationships for a woman in her mid 20s. You can guarantee the press would have dragged up her ex-boyfriends if there were any of note. Maybe she was Infatuated with the married doctor, but it doesn't sound like anything physical happened as there was no solid proof of such in all their messages according to the reporting.

Maybe this led to some sort of 'incel' mentality, and a deep belief/ fear of not marrying and having children (she said as such in her note). Perhaps this spiralled into an irrational hatred towards the couples she saw coming in to the unit, who had relationships/marriages and a new baby. Maybe she felt overwhelming jealousy towards these people and wanted to destroy it. She then revelled in their grief, as these people no longer had what she feared she never would.

I felt, knew she was guilty from the start and have followed this case closely throughout. It’s still unbelievable so many still can’t think she is guilty primarily because she looks so “normal” or looks “like me”. Seriously??!!

Her being an only child with obviously severely overbearing parents may offer some clue as to why she appeared to target siblings, too: three sets of twins and one set of triplets were among her victims in the year to June 2016.

For those new to this case and trying to catch up these articles summarise things brilliantly. Beyond harrowing though I actually feel physically sick reading some parts.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/18/lucy-letby-how-did-a-nurse-commit-such-unthinkable-murders

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/19/trust-me-im-a-nurse-why-wasnt-lucy-letby-stopped-as-months-of-went-by

So the defence had the opportunity to cross examine those doctors and then call their own witnesses: did they do so?

what the so called “scientists” come up with now is of no relevance. The evidence is what was heard in court.

Yes, they are public records. But is it fair to pick over someone’s personal history like this, just in pure speculation? This is someone who must be suffering devastation right now.

@hammie46i Dr Soham Das is a forensic psychiatrist not a psychologist or criminologist.

I didn't say I didn't think she wasn't guilty because she "looks like me."

I was sharing that I had reluctance to accept the verdict for this reason and sharing it may be bias. I was admitting awareness of that possible bias.

I thought mine was a thoughtful post, not a jump to a conclusion based on a bias.

I also accept the court had access to much that I didn't, as I was only reading the Manchester Evening news livestreams of events in the court - they were reporting the highlights.

TooOldForThisNonsense you are right.

After Letby left the unit not 1 baby died in the first 10 months following.

The number of deaths fell back to 4 in 2017 and 2 in 2018.

Compared to 9 in 2015 and 5 babies who died in the first 6months of 2016 until she was removed.

They were investigated, weren't they? Just not proven to be caused by LL.

So hang on, it's ok for people to pick over the details of babies' deaths just in pure speculation, whose parents are suffering devastation, but it's not ok to speculate whether LL is an only child or not?

I think she is guilty but I dont have a problem with people opining that they're not comfortable with the evidence

I dont understand all the angst about that on this thread, and the other one

I don't understand why people keep on bringing up her looks. Are people really that dim? She's not the first blonde, blue-eyed, mildly attractive serial killer and she won't be the last one.

There's a lot of good-looking murderers around!

So this is a garbage comparison. Perinatal is the period during labour so would be in reference to maternity stats like stillbirth and maternal death. She didn't work on the labour and delivery ward. So this figure isn't relevant.
The stats need to be about neonatal deaths only, some of that scientific " evidence" isn't exactly evidence.
Diaphragmatic splinting does occur. It refers to the phenomenon of the stomach being so full (air or milk) that it presses up on the diaphragm and prevents it from moving down during inspiration thereby restricting effective breathing.