Carla Foster being released

[JustMint]

Court of appeal have reduced her sentence!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65581850

She delayed a previous, pre covid, abortion to just before 24 weeks (though I don't think we know the reasons behind that) so if she decided to do something similar, and during Covid, it might have been more difficult to access.

She passed the 24 week mark about a month before lockdown started, so no.

Oh I see.

That is surprising that they did not

I think you’re wasting your time explaining this. There are several posters who go on about “forced birth” on every abortion thread. Even if the thread is discussing very late terminations such as this one. Some people just do not get it.

Wanting to balance the life of a baby against a woman’s ability to obtain an abortion and objecting when a woman deliberately waits till such a late stage - that’s not misogyny. most reasonable people would disagree with what she did - except on MN it seems

I think some posters forget what a baby born at 34 weeks looks like. My son was born at 34 weeks weighing 5.10. He was perfectly formed and just needed a little oxygen. He is now 20 with no medical problems and is a 6ft tall young intelligent man. She must have been obviously pregnant.

Sorry if that came across a bit harsh, but there has been a lot of muddying of the waters about what role covid played in all of this, with people saying she couldn’t access abortion care due to lockdown etc.

She got pregnant in Sept 2019, and had six months to get a legal abortion. During which time she was googling abortion methods, so clearly knew she was pregnant.

Then there was another month after the 24 week limit, before lockdown started. Then lockdown. Then another six weeks before she took the pills.

That is a really, really long time. Lockdown is an absolute red herring here.

Thanks @Saschka I didn't think it was harsh, just factual. I had thought it was further into lockdown than that.

I do think there must have been some background issues (inc the previous late, but legal, abortion, and a baby given up for adoption and partner issues) and the mental health reports done for the appeal may have played a part in the reduced sentence.

Yes, I do agree with all of that - clearly a lot of other stuff going on that we aren’t privy to.

Where did you read she’d delayed a previous abortion till just before 24 weeks? I didn’t think she had.

If the appeal judge disagreed with you? Then what? You said try on judges. Experts don't always know. And your also a random mumsetter.

Why the whataboutery? If the appeal judges had disagreed then there wouldn’t even be a new thread as she’d still be in prison.

Not one that’s pretending I know more about a case than the judges involved though…

Your determination that you’re right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong is quite something.

There would be a thread- you'd be on it saying the judge is wrong for not accepting the appeal.

Also, that's not what whataboutery is. I'm talking about the exact same case and questioning whether you'd still trust the judge then.

I'm not determined about anything, im asking you a question. Determined about what @YetMoreNewBeginnings? Appeals to experts are terrible rationale because experts get things wrong and disagree with each other at times.

There was the case of the teenager recently convicted of murder instead of infanticide. Did you trust the judge or jury then? Or they're wrong now?

The woman next door to me moved in with her new boyfriend. The boyfriend didn't like her 13 year old son, so she poisoned his cornflakes at breakfast (the kid, obviously, poisoning the boyfriend would be just wrong). How can you judge her if you've never been in that exact situation?

Well your neighbour’s 13 year son wasn’t actually in his mum’s womb was he? This comes down to bodily autonomy. A child outside the womb is a very different situation to a foetus inside the womb. I don’t believe in forcing any woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy.

She'd already gone through the pregnancy 🙄

The only one forcing her to go through a pregnancy and deliver at 33 weeks (risking her own life in a horrifically painful & needless way) was herself.

Women get pregnant if we have unprotected sex. We know this, and we know this all our fertile adult lives. It's fecking unfair, but it's true. We can't change it or control it - unless WE take full responsibility for our reproductive and sexual choices.

She fell pregnant in Sep 2019, she started googling accessing abortions in Dec 2019.

She forced herself to carry a pregnancy to 33 weeks and to painfully & unsafely labour and deliver an almost full term fetus. Had she accessed an abortion in December it would have been quick, and (relatively) painless. And safe.

She had full bodily autonomy the whole time. Her responsibility. Her choice. Why she did this, only she knows. But don't remove her own agency from her.

Everyone who commits a crime has got mental health issues. Or are born that way. Either way they did the crime they do the time

What’s that made up story got to do with what I said?

Exactly, she’d already gone through the pregnancy! That’s why this is so awful. She was well into the third trimester, she would have been feeling kicks and movement for months. At her stage of pregnancy it was a baby not a fetus and she would have to give birth to it either way.

As others have said, I am pro choice but what she did was evil and I do think she deserves to face the consequences of her actions. She knew how far along she was and common sense would have told her that she'd have to deliver the baby either way, alive or dead. She choose the latter and lied in order to do so. Most babies born at that stage are viable. Would people being showing her the same level of compassion if she delivered the baby then killed it? At such a late stage of pregnancy it's effectively the same thing. The woman obviously needs a great deal of help and support, but that doesn't excuse what she did.

Can someone link up the article stating she had a previous abortion close to 24 weeks? I don't think I've seen this information published anywhere, where does it come from?

To me lack of imprisonment of someone who knowingly suffocated her own full term baby using pills obtained illegally and which are not supposed to be used at that stage of pregnancy is wrong. That person had enough time to conduct a perfectly legal abortion if for whatever reason she felt she could not have this baby. What she did caused horrendous and unnecessary suffering to a baby that was perfectly capable of living independently outside of her womb at this stage. I consider her baby a member of society deserving protection. She had other options, such as handing the baby in for adoption. She chose the worst one of all. She is in my view a danger to society and should be imprisoned.

I am also astonished how she obtained the pills from BPAS - is there no duty on them to access and review her medical records first? Or is it the case she never had her pregnancy recorded by anyone at all so they couldn't know what stage she was at? If the latter, they should have refused to send them out. It should be compulsory to have the pregnancy record via GP first to obtain them by post. Otherwise there's a risk involved in these pills and women may not be treated as they should be if something goes wrong if there's nothing in their notes. Safeguarding issues might be missed. And there may be more Carla type cases enabled.

Would people being showing her the same level of compassion if she delivered the baby then killed it?

You don't even have to ask. Of course mumsnetters would be leaping to defend her, it already happens unfortunately. Every time a woman kills a child, there's always people defending it.

It was meant to be satire. Of course my next door neighbour didn't poison her son! 😆