Page 11 | Carla Foster being released

JustMint · 2023-07-18T10:23:20+00:00

Court of appeal have reduced her sentence! [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65581850 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65581850]]

AnotherTownAnotherTrain · 19/07/2023 00:24

HRTQueen · 18/07/2023 23:09

I have nothing but sympathy for Carla Foster to be in such a situation is terrible

Then to have to go to prison. Your photos all over the news and on social media

its appalling she wasn’t treated with more compassion from the start

being pro choice isn’t always comfortable but the thought of women being in such a desperate situation and choices are taken away from her is far more concerning

I don't think her identity should have been made public. Her reputation is mud now. Whatever she did and I can't condone it I don't think this is fair.

AnotherTownAnotherTrain · 19/07/2023 00:31

Littlemissfroggy · 18/07/2023 23:21

I am a little confused here. Don't abortion tablets simply induce labour / expulsion of uterine contents? If the fetus is non viable that will obviously lead to it's demise. But they don't directly cause fetal death.

In this case the fetus was of a viable gestation. Most babies born at this gestation would be born alive. And it would appear an ambulance was called when she was in labour? Surely she may have anticipated the infant would survive and merely wished to end her pregnancy? If she called or asked for an ambulance to be called then in a sense she sought medical help for the baby also?

Obviously it would have been better to have laboured under medical supervision but having a bad labour outcome, however irresponsible your choices leading into that outcome isn't and shouldn't generally be a crime, and particularly if medical help is sought (which it seems like it was). If she has asked for medical induction of labour through a sanctioned route for eg mental health there would be no issue here. She would have the right to decline interventions such as CS etc. So I fmt understanding is correct then no I don't think CPS was right to prosecute. I don't think wishing to end a pregnancy should ever be a crime.

I make a distinction between wishing to end a pregnancy (which I personally feel should always be a legal choice) and feticide (which sometimes may result from the former, but if independent of the former has the potential to be a crime depending on circumstance). Eg I would feel differently if she took something to intentionally kill the fetus (at 33/40) before birth but I'm not sure that is what has happened here?

Would she be eligible for induction due to health reasons though ? She would not have been facing any legal action at all had she been considered someone at risk of grave ill health or loss of life? Or am I wrong about this? So I don't think it's the same. If giving birth to a full term baby would be dangerous for her health physically surely this would have been taken into account?

ashesopera · 19/07/2023 01:26

It appears she thought the pregnancy was no more than 28-30 weeks.

I hope she's getting help and support now. She should never have been criminalised, IMO.

Kinneddar · 19/07/2023 02:10

It appears she thought the pregnancy was no more than 28-30 weeks

Yeah so she says

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 19/07/2023 02:16

Kinneddar · 19/07/2023 02:10

It appears she thought the pregnancy was no more than 28-30 weeks

Yeah so she says

And why would she bother lying about that?

It wasn’t to avoid getting in trouble - had she not reported herself no one would have known what she did and she wouldn’t have been prosecuted.

Brefugee · 19/07/2023 06:33

PopGoesTheWeaselYetAgain · 18/07/2023 23:32

There are women serving much longer prison sentences for shaking their babies to death. They too were under severe stress. They too have a other children who are now separated from them. I have sympathique, but I'm struggling to see how this case is different.

And many of us spent a lot of time writing protest letters about them.
Amazingly it is possible to care deeply about several types of injustice at a time. Including wrongly convicted men

BreatheAndFocus · 19/07/2023 07:02

Littlemissfroggy · 18/07/2023 23:21

I am a little confused here. Don't abortion tablets simply induce labour / expulsion of uterine contents? If the fetus is non viable that will obviously lead to it's demise. But they don't directly cause fetal death.

In this case the fetus was of a viable gestation. Most babies born at this gestation would be born alive. And it would appear an ambulance was called when she was in labour? Surely she may have anticipated the infant would survive and merely wished to end her pregnancy? If she called or asked for an ambulance to be called then in a sense she sought medical help for the baby also?

Obviously it would have been better to have laboured under medical supervision but having a bad labour outcome, however irresponsible your choices leading into that outcome isn't and shouldn't generally be a crime, and particularly if medical help is sought (which it seems like it was). If she has asked for medical induction of labour through a sanctioned route for eg mental health there would be no issue here. She would have the right to decline interventions such as CS etc. So I fmt understanding is correct then no I don't think CPS was right to prosecute. I don't think wishing to end a pregnancy should ever be a crime.

I make a distinction between wishing to end a pregnancy (which I personally feel should always be a legal choice) and feticide (which sometimes may result from the former, but if independent of the former has the potential to be a crime depending on circumstance). Eg I would feel differently if she took something to intentionally kill the fetus (at 33/40) before birth but I'm not sure that is what has happened here?

She called an ambulance, yes, but she denied being pregnant to the paramedics:

Paramedics attended at 4.25pm in response to a report that you might be having a miscarriage. You gave the paramedics false information and, not realising that you were pregnant, they left The second call was made at 6.39pm shortly before your daughter, Lily, was stillborn. Paramedics attended at 7pm but all attempts at resuscitation failed and Lily was pronounced dead at 7.45pm

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 07:06

It wasn’t to avoid getting in trouble - had she not reported herself no one would have known what she did and she wouldn’t have been prosecuted.

Why would she lie? Because a later gestation is worse. Calling an ambulance and lying to paramedics- she was trying to get away with it, there's no point in acting like it was some noble way of turning herself in

Kpo58 · 19/07/2023 07:20

Lottapianos · 18/07/2023 19:07

'As early as possible, as late as necessary, for whatever reason'

That's exactly where I stand too. I'm not ok with any woman being forced to give birth for any reason

How else do you think that a viable baby of 30+ weeks is going to come out of its mother's tummy? Regardless of if you abort it or not at that point, you are still going to give birth to it. You are not going to magically reabsorb it.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 19/07/2023 07:25

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 07:06

It wasn’t to avoid getting in trouble - had she not reported herself no one would have known what she did and she wouldn’t have been prosecuted.

Why would she lie? Because a later gestation is worse. Calling an ambulance and lying to paramedics- she was trying to get away with it, there's no point in acting like it was some noble way of turning herself in

She did turn herself in. She’s the one who later told the police what she had done.

Even the CPS have said if that hadn’t happened it’s highly unlikely anyone would have realised what happened.

ashesopera · 19/07/2023 08:27

Kinneddar
It appears she thought the pregnancy was no more than 28-30 weeks

Yeah so she says

She did say, but that's also borne out as being true from what they found in her internet searches, which were used as evidence I believe.

itsmyp4rty · 19/07/2023 09:06

I'm prochoice but only within the current legal limits - I'm not pro 'women can do anything they like to their unborn baby right up until the point they give birth'.

I don't know why people assume there must be something seriously wrong with her mentally to do this - and not that it was just inconvenient, she wanted rid and she really isn't a good person. She lied and lied, she'd searched online and planned the whole thing - this wasn't spur of the moment it was all premeditated.

All my concern is for her other kids, especially the one with ASD, she says she's a good mother? Well she's a proven liar. All my concern goes to those 3 poor kids who have been put through god knows what, and have god knows what sort of men moving in and out and back into their lives again. I can't imagine for one minute she's a good mother, it's just what she said to try to avoid jail - those poor kids.

nonman · 19/07/2023 09:19

You’re not pro. You e then are you

nonman · 19/07/2023 09:19

*you’re not pro choice then

PopGoesTheWeaselYetAgain · 19/07/2023 09:53

Brefugee · 19/07/2023 06:33

And many of us spent a lot of time writing protest letters about them.
Amazingly it is possible to care deeply about several types of injustice at a time. Including wrongly convicted men

Show quote history

I guess that's what I was asking. When it comes to late term abortion/infanticide, should women be imprisoned at all? But snapping and doing something you deeply regret is a very different thing from a premeditated choice, is it not?

Blossomtoes · 19/07/2023 09:56

nonman · 19/07/2023 09:19

*you’re not pro choice then

Of course she is.

FOJN · 19/07/2023 10:30

I am a little confused here. Don't abortion tablets simply induce labour / expulsion of uterine contents? If the fetus is non viable that will obviously lead to it's demise. But they don't directly cause fetal death.

The first tablets taken for medical abortion block progesterone and cause the lining of the uterus and embryo to detach, the second drug is usually taken 48 hours later and causes the uterus to contract and expel the contents.

I don't see how we could ethically research the effects at 30+ weeks pregnancy. You couldn't ask women with perfectly healthy pregnancies to take part in research because of the obvious risk of terminating the pregnancy and the women seeking late term abortions for maternal health or severe foetal abnormality reasons are likely to be quite distressed by such a request and the results would be skewed by the fact that either the mother or foetus had health issues.

If the uterus lining detached after the first drug then it seems logical that the placenta would too, resulting foetal death without immediate medical intervention.

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 10:35

She did turn herself in. She’s the one who later told the police what she had done.

I'm not about to applaud her for doing this when she lied up until the 11th hour. Lots of people admit to things under pressure 🤷‍♀️

Ghastisflabbered · 19/07/2023 11:30

Mushroo · 18/07/2023 14:56

Per my earlier post - it wasn’t Covid for all but the last 6 weeks or so of her pregnancy. She had months of normal medical care available.

Show quote history

Did she though?

Where do you live that the NHS was a golden utopia of on demand services pre March 2020?

I don’t live a millions miles away from where Carla Foster lived and the NHS was a shambles that winter - super long waiting times in hospitals, GP access was limited due to demand and from early Feb 2020 the GP’s didn’t want to see you face to face if you’d been coughing (I tried to get a GP appointment for a chest infection just before my bday on the 4th of Feb 2020).

There are a million things wrong with this whole case that can be discussed but let’s not pretend that NHS services were not affected pre 1st March 2020.

Mushroo · 19/07/2023 11:35

Ghastisflabbered · 19/07/2023 11:30

Did she though?

Where do you live that the NHS was a golden utopia of on demand services pre March 2020?

I don’t live a millions miles away from where Carla Foster lived and the NHS was a shambles that winter - super long waiting times in hospitals, GP access was limited due to demand and from early Feb 2020 the GP’s didn’t want to see you face to face if you’d been coughing (I tried to get a GP appointment for a chest infection just before my bday on the 4th of Feb 2020).

There are a million things wrong with this whole case that can be discussed but let’s not pretend that NHS services were not affected pre 1st March 2020.

Show quote history

I highly doubt services were so bad that she’d have been denied access to an abortion for 32 weeks. Let’s be realistic, she could have got an abortion if she’d tried.

Littlemissfroggy · 19/07/2023 12:03

@FOJN

Thank you this clears things up for me. Yes I can now see how the medications would cause the baby to die. I guess it would be important to clarify that she also understood this (presumably this was clarified!)

I am pro choice in terms of when and how a women gives birth but I think intentionally harming or killing a viable fetus where this isn't directly for the mother's health should be a crime. Just as it is (and should be) a crime if a third party does so. I don't think prison is the right solution to most crimes, probably not this one either but right that she has been convicted if she was aware she was killing her baby.

ashesopera · 19/07/2023 13:04

I highly doubt services were so bad that she’d have been denied access to an abortion for 32 weeks. Let’s be realistic, she could have got an abortion if she’d tried.

I can well believe pps who talk about the difficulty of getting abortions in time. It's difficult enough to secure a GP appointment, pre and post covid, so during Covid would have been even worse.

Plus, she believed she was 28-30 weeks pregnant, this was supported by her internet searches and used as evidence. She'd had a late abortion previously (just before 24 weeks) so could have missed the cutoff point somehow. Possibly. It sounds like an act of desperation anyway.

phemia67 · 19/07/2023 13:11

I've name changed to post this as I was discussing this point earlier with someone.

Is it possible @Littlemissfroggy @FOJN that she did not know what the impact of the tablets would be or if it would even work on a pregnancy at that stage. I say this also as there at least two cases in law ( that I know of) where those abortion tablets haven't worked, though taken correctly, in successfully aborting an early pregnancy. She couldn't have known exactly what might happen at that stage (30+ weeks).

Freepo · 19/07/2023 13:21

phemia67 · 19/07/2023 13:11

I've name changed to post this as I was discussing this point earlier with someone.

Is it possible @Littlemissfroggy @FOJN that she did not know what the impact of the tablets would be or if it would even work on a pregnancy at that stage. I say this also as there at least two cases in law ( that I know of) where those abortion tablets haven't worked, though taken correctly, in successfully aborting an early pregnancy. She couldn't have known exactly what might happen at that stage (30+ weeks).

Hmmm, not sure about that. If she didn’t think that the tablets would result in the loss of the pregnancy, why was she taking them?

Freepo · 19/07/2023 13:25

Actually, I’ve just checked the Offences Against the Person act, she pleaded to section 58 which requires an intent to procure miscarriage - so she did know.