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MrsFinkelstein · 19/07/2023 13:30

phemia67 · 19/07/2023 13:11

I've name changed to post this as I was discussing this point earlier with someone.

Is it possible @Littlemissfroggy @FOJN that she did not know what the impact of the tablets would be or if it would even work on a pregnancy at that stage. I say this also as there at least two cases in law ( that I know of) where those abortion tablets haven't worked, though taken correctly, in successfully aborting an early pregnancy. She couldn't have known exactly what might happen at that stage (30+ weeks).

I work in abortion services, all women are counselled that there is a 1:100 failure rate for the medication.

She would have been told that during her telephone consultation- where she would have been fully assessed by a Dr or a Nurse (or fully qualified HCP), and where she gave false information.

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 13:49

If it was so difficult during Covid to get a tent i action, where are all the other women convicted for this offence? It wasn't so difficult that any woman had to wait to 30+ weeks. In fact, it was easier in many ways as it was delivered straight to you so more accessible to people who can't make it to the clinic. I was in a situation as a teenager where I couldn't afford the bus fare.

I think the fact is, she could have gotten an abortion and for whatever reason, delayed it to a completely unacceptable extent. Whether or not you bribe she still has autonomy is one thing but do we really need to bend over backwards here? Everyone else managed not to get into this situation.

lieselotte · 19/07/2023 14:17

Blossomtoes · 18/07/2023 21:25

You draw the line by not imprisoning a woman who is no danger to anyone else. Imprisonment was entirely inappropriate in this instance.

I agree. For me, prison is where you put people who are a danger to society.

She was not.

lieselotte · 19/07/2023 14:17

*If it was so difficult during Covid to get a tent i action, where are all the other women convicted for this offence"

not caught, or if caught, medical staff/police/CPS took a common sense view

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 15:06

lieselotte · 19/07/2023 14:17

*If it was so difficult during Covid to get a tent i action, where are all the other women convicted for this offence"

not caught, or if caught, medical staff/police/CPS took a common sense view

I highly doubt there's scores of women not able to get an abortion and waiting til 30 weeks. That's the more likely explanation than loads of women covering up late term abortions and disposing of infants' bodies.

Some areas of medicine were backlogged but not to that extends, they simply weren't. If she wanted a termination earlier, she would and could have got one.

Gloxinia · 19/07/2023 15:10

Lottapianos · 18/07/2023 19:07

'As early as possible, as late as necessary, for whatever reason'

That's exactly where I stand too. I'm not ok with any woman being forced to give birth for any reason

Me too

ashesopera · 19/07/2023 16:26

If it was so difficult during Covid to get a tent i action, where are all the other women convicted for this offence? It wasn't so difficult that any woman had to wait to 30+ weeks. In fact, it was easier in many ways as it was delivered straight to you so more accessible to people who can't make it to the clinic. I was in a situation as a teenager where I couldn't afford the bus fare.

She delayed a previous, pre covid, abortion to just before 24 weeks (though I don't think we know the reasons behind that) so if she decided to do something similar, and during Covid, it might have been more difficult to access.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 19/07/2023 16:37

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 13:49

If it was so difficult during Covid to get a tent i action, where are all the other women convicted for this offence? It wasn't so difficult that any woman had to wait to 30+ weeks. In fact, it was easier in many ways as it was delivered straight to you so more accessible to people who can't make it to the clinic. I was in a situation as a teenager where I couldn't afford the bus fare.

I think the fact is, she could have gotten an abortion and for whatever reason, delayed it to a completely unacceptable extent. Whether or not you bribe she still has autonomy is one thing but do we really need to bend over backwards here? Everyone else managed not to get into this situation.

Given that they’ve said had she not reported herself she would never have been caught why would you expect there to be other women convicted? Even if other people did do it deliberately that late (which is unlikely given it’s very rare) they wouldn’t be in trouble unless they told someone what they did

Saschka · 19/07/2023 17:16

ashesopera · 19/07/2023 16:26

If it was so difficult during Covid to get a tent i action, where are all the other women convicted for this offence? It wasn't so difficult that any woman had to wait to 30+ weeks. In fact, it was easier in many ways as it was delivered straight to you so more accessible to people who can't make it to the clinic. I was in a situation as a teenager where I couldn't afford the bus fare.

She delayed a previous, pre covid, abortion to just before 24 weeks (though I don't think we know the reasons behind that) so if she decided to do something similar, and during Covid, it might have been more difficult to access.

She passed the 24 week mark about a month before lockdown started, so no.

HonoriaLucastaDelagardie · 19/07/2023 17:31

Given that they’ve said had she not reported herself she would never have been caught....

There was a stillborn child. Her partner knew. The paramedics who attended the second time knew. Anyone who saw her medical records would presumably see that she had had abortion pills sent to her. How could it not have become known?

Iwasafool · 19/07/2023 17:32

lieselotte · 19/07/2023 14:17

I agree. For me, prison is where you put people who are a danger to society.

She was not.

Show quote history

Well there are an awful lot of people in prison who shouldn't be there if that is the yardstick. I'd say most of them are more deserving of a campaign than a woman who killed a baby in what seems to be a horrible way.

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 17:35

@YetMoreNewBeginnings or maybe, just maybe- it just hasn't happened. There aren't scores of women disposing of the bodies of 34 week fetuses. Even during Covid. No.

99.99% of women were somehow able to avoid this situation. I find the level of excuses actually quite shocking. It's lie there's always a back-up excuse if the first one falls.

The only role Covid played was making it too easy and facilitating a late term abortion isn't is case. Thankfully, most women terminate early.

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 17:37

And the thing is yes there may have been 1
Or 2 women who did the same. Where are the** thousands of others?

Oh yes, there aren't any. Because it has nothing to do with Covid.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 19/07/2023 17:45

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 17:37

And the thing is yes there may have been 1
Or 2 women who did the same. Where are the** thousands of others?

Oh yes, there aren't any. Because it has nothing to do with Covid.

You were the one asking where the others were… if there were any, be that 1, 2, or 176371 they’re unlikely to have been caught unless they reported themselves as she did.

nobody is saying it’s common. That it’s so rare is one of the reasons so many don’t prison is/was appropriate.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 19/07/2023 17:47

HonoriaLucastaDelagardie · 19/07/2023 17:31

Given that they’ve said had she not reported herself she would never have been caught....

There was a stillborn child. Her partner knew. The paramedics who attended the second time knew. Anyone who saw her medical records would presumably see that she had had abortion pills sent to her. How could it not have become known?

It was known that there was a stillborn child. It was only known that she caused it because she reported herself.

The chances of prosecution without that confession were tiny. They’d have had to have suspicions and then find traces of the pills in her to prove she’d taken them.

FoodFann · 19/07/2023 17:48

drpet49 · 18/07/2023 12:32

This. She did it because she didn’t know who the father was.

Show quote history

She belongs in jail. I agree with PP, it sets a very dangerous precedent. Is that it now then - abortion is legal up to 33 weeks following this as case law?!

That’s fucking disgusting and I don’t think that’s what the British people would want if this law was set properly. Absolutely vile and makes me feel physically sick that she killed that poor, full grown, perfect, little innocent baby and is let off the hook.

FoodFann · 19/07/2023 17:53

Namechanger1002 · 18/07/2023 21:52

How many of you passing judgement have been in her situation? It’s easy to say what you think you would do but until you are actually in that position none of you know.

None of us. By design! Where’s the personal responsibility?

Kingsparkle · 19/07/2023 17:54

What precedent? I doubt we are going to see a rise in illegal self administered abortions because one woman’s sentence was reduced. It’s not like the threat of prison was the thing stopping this happening. It’s a rare and shocking case for a reason.

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 18:09

Kingsparkle · 19/07/2023 17:54

What precedent? I doubt we are going to see a rise in illegal self administered abortions because one woman’s sentence was reduced. It’s not like the threat of prison was the thing stopping this happening. It’s a rare and shocking case for a reason.

Imo it's not just abortions. There are people who absolutely excuse women for killing newborns and even toddlers.

Must be psychotic
Pressure of being a mum
Was influenced by someone else to do it
Covid
Her child died so she's suffered enough despite being the person responsible
Her other children need her, so don't convict
In the case of neglect, maybe she didn't realise the child was dying

And it's misogyny if you disagree with the above obviously.

People won't intentionally be having abortions or killing children because of this, but it can set a precedent for sentencing.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 19/07/2023 18:15

a highly unusual case that the appeal judges said has “exceptionally strong mitigation” is very unlikely to set any precedent due to the highly unusual nature of it.

Kingsparkle · 19/07/2023 19:32

God some people on this thread are just so dense. The world is not black and white. People are rarely just evil. Crime is not committed in a vacuum. Prison is not some magical solution. Punishment rarely does much good. No, you have no idea how you’d react in a situation you’ve not experienced. The judges knew a fuck ton more this case than any of us do. I’m done now. Flounces

Nuttkin · 19/07/2023 19:44

Judges know better! Except when the eh disagree with you... like the first judge. Or when they disagree with each other...

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 19/07/2023 19:45

Almost as if the appeal judges had more information than the first judge… Like the mental health reports that weren’t done first time round.

But obviously MNetters know much better…

PopGoesTheWeaselYetAgain · 19/07/2023 19:56

Gloxinia · 19/07/2023 15:10

Me too

Show quote history

But that doesn't make any logical sense. Nobody's 'forcing' a heavily pregnant woman to give birth. She has to give birth to the baby, dead or alive. There's no way out at that stage.

PopGoesTheWeaselYetAgain · 19/07/2023 19:59

itsmyp4rty · 19/07/2023 09:06

I'm prochoice but only within the current legal limits - I'm not pro 'women can do anything they like to their unborn baby right up until the point they give birth'.

I don't know why people assume there must be something seriously wrong with her mentally to do this - and not that it was just inconvenient, she wanted rid and she really isn't a good person. She lied and lied, she'd searched online and planned the whole thing - this wasn't spur of the moment it was all premeditated.

All my concern is for her other kids, especially the one with ASD, she says she's a good mother? Well she's a proven liar. All my concern goes to those 3 poor kids who have been put through god knows what, and have god knows what sort of men moving in and out and back into their lives again. I can't imagine for one minute she's a good mother, it's just what she said to try to avoid jail - those poor kids.

You're clearly not pro-choice then. Either you're pro-choice up to the age of 18, or you're misogynistic and anti-choice.