Page 39 | Overheard something quite personal

User5653218 · 2023-07-14T10:20:59+00:00

I was walking along the road and I could hear someone in a parked car having a chat on a hands free speaker. She had all her windows open and the speaker was really loud. She was a carer for a care company, logo on the car. I couldn't really make out what the person in the car was saying but the person on the speakerphone could be heard clear as day by anyone nearby. They were obviously discussing the clients they had visited this morning and the speakerphone person said "when I went into Mary at number 14 this morning she had shat herself in her chair again" then they both started laughing. Mary is not her real name, it is a very distinctive name, so I knew straight away who they were talking about. She's an elderly lady I know quite well. She would be mortified if she knew anyone walking past that car at that time knew that about her. And the car was parked just round the corner from her house so there's a good chance that anyone walking past might work out who they were talking about. I stopped at the car and said "excuse me, I could hear really clearly what was being said on your speaker, I know the person you are laughing about." The woman said "oh ffs, we're just having a laugh. Do you fancy wiping old women's bums after they've been sat in their own shit for god knows how long?" And I said "No I wouldn't, I'm glad you're able to do it, but maybe you could just close your window or not use your speaker, then no-one would hear you" She said "oh fuck off". So I left. Should I report them to their agency? I don't want to get them in trouble, they do do a job many people couldn't, but I know Mary would be devastated if she knew I'd heard that. I'm so angry for her. She's such a lovely lady, she tries so hard to keep her independence and dignity despite all her health problems. I toyed with telling her, but it would just upset her and I'm not sure how easy it would be for her to find alternative care anyway, there's not much to choose from round our way. And I don't know if she would then be too embarrassed to speak to me. She doesn't have family, if she had a son or daughter I might have spoken to them. But it makes me so angry that these women were laughing about her and that they will still be doing her personal care. Am I over-reacting? Were they just letting off steam after their early morning shift? It is a tough job, I have no doubt it's not fun to start your day with that. But that is their job and their clients can't help it. I'm sure they don't want to be like this either. What would you do? I'm thinking I'll tell the agency but not Mary. Or is it enough that I spoke to the person in the car and maybe they'll think about it in future, even if they were rude to me at the time? I guess I could do a semi-anonymous report where I just say that I overheard some chat in a car and could they please remind their staff to be discreet when having conversations in a public place, rather than give details?

salsmum · 16/07/2023 23:35

Please don't tar all with the same brush as most carers are 'compassionate sorts' and that's the reason why we stay in a job with ridiculous long shifts ( 12-14 hours) for very little pay, regular breaks and recognition! We DO grow attached to our clients and want the absolute best care for them.... but confidentiality must always be respected and even my closest friends do not know the name of my clients. When they are driving in a car with agency advertised on it they are representing that company so I think a gentle call to the agency is needed so the carers do not continue breaking confidentiality rules.

PurpleButterflyWings · 16/07/2023 23:44

salsmum · 16/07/2023 23:35

Please don't tar all with the same brush as most carers are 'compassionate sorts' and that's the reason why we stay in a job with ridiculous long shifts ( 12-14 hours) for very little pay, regular breaks and recognition! We DO grow attached to our clients and want the absolute best care for them.... but confidentiality must always be respected and even my closest friends do not know the name of my clients. When they are driving in a car with agency advertised on it they are representing that company so I think a gentle call to the agency is needed so the carers do not continue breaking confidentiality rules.

I know.

I know 5 or 6 women who are carers, and they are some of the loveliest people I know. Do it for a job AND care for family members too. ❤

Atsocta · 17/07/2023 00:19

Definitely inform the company, this lady and possibly others are not getting the care they deserve…I wouldn’t want them around me, would you?
then stop them …

JGRAN · 17/07/2023 02:40

MolkosTeenageAngst · 16/07/2023 19:35

Yeah, I guess I would just never take the word of one stranger about a situation I wasn’t at because I know how subjective points of view are and how much they can be affected by people’s personal opinions and views, most people struggle to be objective. I always look to try and see what the other points of view might be rather than to see things as black and white, maybe that’s because my natural thinking used to be very black and white and so I have worked very hard to try and look beyond that and to try and unpick other sides to a situation beyond the face of it. Maybe the carer responded to OP as she did because she is an awful person, or maybe she is a usually kind person who was having a truly awful day or who felt threatened, maybe the OP didn’t actually approach her as politely as she’s made out in the thread and actually was rude and aggressive to the carer and so received a response in a similar tone. To just take the OP’s one sided view as fact just seems absurd to me, very rarely is one person’s account of a situation the true objective one.

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Number plate, date and time. If there is one less 'carer' good

ITryHarder · 17/07/2023 03:11

MolkosTeenageAngst · 16/07/2023 22:13

Maybe, but I feel like sometimes there is no one conclusion and that’s okay. I try not to forget there are peoples real lives on the end of this. All these posts saying that the carers are abusive, derogatory, rude, cruel etc and suggesting they’re probably unkind to Mary will have vilified and erred on the OP to report. That’s fine if the OP’s account and the posters interpretations are 100% true, but if actually the OP has exaggerated/ misinterpreted things when writing out the situation and made out the way she approached the carer in the car was rude and intimidating and she then goes on to report what was actually reasonable behaviour but uses some of the language on this thread when reporting (eg: saying they were being cruel, going into detail, slagging Mary off etc) and gets the carers sacked anyway then the result is real people lose their jobs and a real elderly woman loses carers who were actually good and kind to her.

I think the same on threads where an OP shares her one sided account of an argument between her and DH and immediately everybody jumps to the fact he’s abusive, he’s probably cheating and works to convince the OP she needs to LTB. They seem to forget that it’s a real person with a real life behind the screen and that actually black and white advice and taking an OPs word as gospel might not actually be helpful if it leads to the OP making life-changing decisions. I admit I probably do have a tendency to play devil’s advocate on a lot of threads and bring up opposing point of views but it’s because I sometimes think it’s a bit dangerous the way so many posters take everything on a thread as true and give very definite advice based on that, rather than recognising that real life situations are rarely so simple and black and white and that people are actually very complex beings. It isn’t so simple as to say somebody who swears is probably a bad/ abusive carer and someone who is polite is a good one, the reality of human behaviour is so much more complex.

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I've followed your posts more closely than any others, and have come to believe you are a very, very sweet person with only good intentions (even though you told your boss to fuck off. Tsk, tsk.)

But you bring up an awful lot of maybes, and question whether some people are making assumptions. Aren't you doing the same thing by implying that we don't know if OP is being totally honest or accurate in her interpretation of events. An OPs story is all readers have to go by and we respond accordingly. Otherwise, what's the purpose of MUMsnet. Some people respond harshly and others more kindly, each decides which side they want to defend, but many responses often tell more about that person and their views of life or personal encounters. For example, if an OP were to ask if the common uses of the word fuck (which I use as an example because it's been such a big part of this thread), as in fucker, fuck off, fuck you is right and proper in a civilized society, the answers would probably range from "fuck yeah" to "no, we should be ashamed". I personally think we should be ashamed, but a thousand others would berate me. Does it make either of us right or wrong. No, it just shows that some people enjoy using language that others consider filthy, rude or degrading, while others hate hearing it. An impasse we learn to live with.

You mentioned tone of voice. You're right. Even fuck you can be taken in jest among friends just horsin' around or as fightin' words in a barroom argument, insulting or often hurtful. But do you honestly believe that the question "Do you fancy wiping olds women's bums after they've been sat in their own shit for God knows how long?" followed by fuck off, could be said in any tone that did not indicate dissatisfaction or annoyance with this old woman? I suppose she could have said it softly in a singsong voice as she smiled, but OPs understanding didn't reflect that, and we only have OPs understanding to go by.

You are right about different viewpoints though. If the caretaker had been the one to write, her story may have painted a whole different picture about this out of control stranger who approached her when she and her friend were discussing how sorry they felt for poor Mary.

Devil's advocate often adds insight, but at some point, decisions must be made, in this case, to protect Mary's dignity and possibly even well-being. And yes, some people have jumped to the conclusion that there may be abuse. Possible? Who knows, but we do know that the caretaker could have handled the conversation with OP with more diplomacy, in which case, OP would have had no reason to write to MUMsnet.

Take care. The world is not always kind to nice people anymore than it is to anyone else.

JGRAN · 17/07/2023 03:44

ITryHarder · 17/07/2023 03:11

I've followed your posts more closely than any others, and have come to believe you are a very, very sweet person with only good intentions (even though you told your boss to fuck off. Tsk, tsk.)

But you bring up an awful lot of maybes, and question whether some people are making assumptions. Aren't you doing the same thing by implying that we don't know if OP is being totally honest or accurate in her interpretation of events. An OPs story is all readers have to go by and we respond accordingly. Otherwise, what's the purpose of MUMsnet. Some people respond harshly and others more kindly, each decides which side they want to defend, but many responses often tell more about that person and their views of life or personal encounters. For example, if an OP were to ask if the common uses of the word fuck (which I use as an example because it's been such a big part of this thread), as in fucker, fuck off, fuck you is right and proper in a civilized society, the answers would probably range from "fuck yeah" to "no, we should be ashamed". I personally think we should be ashamed, but a thousand others would berate me. Does it make either of us right or wrong. No, it just shows that some people enjoy using language that others consider filthy, rude or degrading, while others hate hearing it. An impasse we learn to live with.

You mentioned tone of voice. You're right. Even fuck you can be taken in jest among friends just horsin' around or as fightin' words in a barroom argument, insulting or often hurtful. But do you honestly believe that the question "Do you fancy wiping olds women's bums after they've been sat in their own shit for God knows how long?" followed by fuck off, could be said in any tone that did not indicate dissatisfaction or annoyance with this old woman? I suppose she could have said it softly in a singsong voice as she smiled, but OPs understanding didn't reflect that, and we only have OPs understanding to go by.

You are right about different viewpoints though. If the caretaker had been the one to write, her story may have painted a whole different picture about this out of control stranger who approached her when she and her friend were discussing how sorry they felt for poor Mary.

Devil's advocate often adds insight, but at some point, decisions must be made, in this case, to protect Mary's dignity and possibly even well-being. And yes, some people have jumped to the conclusion that there may be abuse. Possible? Who knows, but we do know that the caretaker could have handled the conversation with OP with more diplomacy, in which case, OP would have had no reason to write to MUMsnet.

Take care. The world is not always kind to nice people anymore than it is to anyone else.

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Why is this a problem with reporting this.

ITryHarder · 17/07/2023 05:58

JGRAN

Maybe you wrote to the wrong poster. I didn't say anything about a problem.

LadyWhistledownAteMyHamster · 17/07/2023 08:59

The standards you walk past are the standards you choose to accept. I would tell the agency, and then it is in their hands. The carer was disrespectful, regardless of her pay grade and it's not acceptable.

WotsitsMadeIn1927 · 17/07/2023 10:55

This a is huge breach of confidentiality. Mary obviously has the help as she’s unable to manage alone, those ‘carers’ should be more sensitive about her dignity.
I’m also pretty sure that protecting clients/patients identities and dignity is actually part of training and contract agreement policies, so Miss rudeness could and should get in to a lot of trouble.

WildUnchartedWaters · 17/07/2023 11:09

JGRAN · 17/07/2023 03:44

Why is this a problem with reporting this.

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It isnt.

The poster is trying to explain to that previous poster why her viewpoint is wrong, it might be worth reading the last few pages.
This is the same poster who has...difficulties understanding tone. I cant repeat again why as.some idiot reported me last time.

allforyouul · 17/07/2023 11:14

I would go above the agency.

The carer could have apologised and put her window up etc but she didn't she carried on with foul language and obviously thinks she is entitled to speak like that about service users. This makes me angry, imagine if that was your parent. Please report it

Catsmere · 17/07/2023 11:37

Please note, people, OP described how she reported the matter several pages ago. Given the lack of response, and as a PP said, the fact that Mary had been left to sit in her own excrement before a carer ever got there, I'd say this needs escalation way above agency level.

Catpuss66 · 17/07/2023 12:18

Catsmere · 17/07/2023 11:37

Please note, people, OP described how she reported the matter several pages ago. Given the lack of response, and as a PP said, the fact that Mary had been left to sit in her own excrement before a carer ever got there, I'd say this needs escalation way above agency level.

Sure she was not left to sit in own excrement. She probably only has morning & evening visits which have been ok’d by SS. This is what they are getting paid for. This is not the companies fault how are they meant to know if she has had an accident. They are a business not the nhs. The company have acted swiftly & removed the carer from seeing Mary.

uglybettty · 17/07/2023 14:14

Catsmere · 17/07/2023 11:37

Please note, people, OP described how she reported the matter several pages ago. Given the lack of response, and as a PP said, the fact that Mary had been left to sit in her own excrement before a carer ever got there, I'd say this needs escalation way above agency level.

Unfortunately, you'll be surprised to know, because of mobility issues or lack of capacity, many elderly or disabled people do end up sitting in soiled clothing for some time before the carers arrive. Care is severely underfunded and most domiciliary care calls are 15-30 minutes long. Some people don't meet the criteria to have more than 2 or 3 a day. It's not necessarily a sign of poor care. Unfortunately carers can only do so much and aren't there 24/7 to change their service users instantly.

Razkaz · 17/07/2023 14:17

You need to inform the company. What concerns me is that she swore at you without a second thought. If she treats a normal person like that how do you think she treats an elderly helpless person who can't fight back.

Daisy2006 · 17/07/2023 14:18

euff · 14/07/2023 11:31

Don't tell the agency please tell adult social care in writing, you can do it anonymously. Mary won't be in a care home because one or two carers is no longer working for that agency and even if that were the case it may not be worse than being at home with maybe only this kind of person entering the home to do personal care.

You seem like a decent person and I think if you don't do anything it will eat at you. Only a uncaring piece of work could forget about it easily.

This!!!

OhMerseyMe · 17/07/2023 15:44

I definitely would not tell Mary, but definitely would call the company. They could easily figure out who the carer was if you tell them the date. I know that is a very difficult job, but one that needs someone with compassion doing it! The “patients” are at the carers mercy for the most part so I pray they treat Mary and all of their other clients with respect and dignity and keep those kinds of comments between themselves as a way to vent, cope, make light of the situation, etc.

thelionthewitchtheaudacityofTHISbitch · 17/07/2023 21:51

MolkosTeenageAngst · 15/07/2023 18:06

As far as I can tell all they said is ‘she shit in the chair again’ and laughed. Yes, it’s not something Mary would want people to know but some of these responses are acting as if they said ‘I gave her a slap after she shit in the chair the fucking disgusting old bitch.’ Is it really that derogatory or degrading to refer to something a client did at work? I have said things like ‘he smeared shit on the walls again’ or ‘she ripped a chunk of her shitty pad and put it in her mouth again’ about people I work with to my colleagues and we might laugh about it. I’m not laughing at the people I work with for the fact I’m incontinent, more laughing at myself that this is a part of my job I have to deal with, if I laughed at a colleague telling me she had to deal with shit it would be in a ‘haha, bad luck to you’ way and not a ‘haha what a joke that client is’ way. If you work in care dealing with incontinence is so common it’s unlikely you would be laughing at a client in an ‘Omg I can’t believe she did that’ way because it’s pretty normal, it’s not unusual. I have incontinence issues myself in the form of bed wetting so I’m not looking to judge anyone for it, but that doesn’t mean it could never be laughed again. It should not have been said in a context where it could be heard, absolutely the carer who had the phone on loudspeaker should have been more careful, but the conversation itself is really not a big deal. It is normal to laugh in these situations, just as a mother might tell a father about their child’s poonami and both parents might laugh about it, doesn’t mean they’re bad or abusive parents. Toilet humour isn’t unusual.

I really do get what you are saying - that in a tricky situation carers as well as many other professionals need to be able to let off steam, stress etc. I get black humour - it is a necessary outlet. The problem here is that the carers were doing it very publicly, such that the person could be identified by a neighbour. The information shared was medical and sensitive information - that is a very tight ruling under GDPR legislation which regulates how personal data is used and shared. That isn't OK. You mention derogatory or degrading - data sharing could be positive news. So the carer could have discussed how the neighbour was doing well - the name was unusual and local. So still a data breach that needs to be reported. I was a Trustee for a charity - my responsibility on the Board was around Risk Management & Data - I was determined that we would have a no fault policy. You cannot expect staff (normally, often, minimum wage) to report their own data breaches, if they will be penalised. It should always be about how can we learn, what can we do better.

Catsmere · 17/07/2023 22:02

uglybettty · 17/07/2023 14:14

Unfortunately, you'll be surprised to know, because of mobility issues or lack of capacity, many elderly or disabled people do end up sitting in soiled clothing for some time before the carers arrive. Care is severely underfunded and most domiciliary care calls are 15-30 minutes long. Some people don't meet the criteria to have more than 2 or 3 a day. It's not necessarily a sign of poor care. Unfortunately carers can only do so much and aren't there 24/7 to change their service users instantly.

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That's truly atrocious. It's so different here. I'm my mother's carer and since she's on the highest level of funding she gets two visits a week for showering (she's not incontinent or unable to get to the toilet) and those visits last one hour. By law here care workers have to be booked for two hours, which means a lot of juggling for companies to link two one hour visits when clients don't need them for two. I didn't know it was so extremely bad in Britain, that's appalling.

HariboPotter · 18/07/2023 11:00

Philosopherstone · 14/07/2023 11:24

This!!!

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This!
Carers need to be able to vent the stress of the job, sometimes the approachcan seem uncaring and callus to an outsider. I guarantee you the carer will care as soon as the door to the patient opens.
Let it go. Don't destroy two lifes for the sake of dignity out of context.

dickdarstardlymuttley · 18/07/2023 11:11

@HariboPotter
That's nonsense.
That 'carer' has no standards and is unprofessional.

sunglassesonthetable · 18/07/2023 11:14

. I guarantee you the carer will care as soon as the door to the patient opens.

As if ANYONE can guarantee anything on this thread.

It's all about OP doing a risk assessment on the situation.

And as part of the risk you don't seem to have considered Mary's life.

sunglassesonthetable · 18/07/2023 11:23

Mary's life = I meant to say " quality of life " !

LaterHarold · 18/07/2023 11:43

thelionthewitchtheaudacityofTHISbitch · 17/07/2023 21:51

I really do get what you are saying - that in a tricky situation carers as well as many other professionals need to be able to let off steam, stress etc. I get black humour - it is a necessary outlet. The problem here is that the carers were doing it very publicly, such that the person could be identified by a neighbour. The information shared was medical and sensitive information - that is a very tight ruling under GDPR legislation which regulates how personal data is used and shared. That isn't OK. You mention derogatory or degrading - data sharing could be positive news. So the carer could have discussed how the neighbour was doing well - the name was unusual and local. So still a data breach that needs to be reported. I was a Trustee for a charity - my responsibility on the Board was around Risk Management & Data - I was determined that we would have a no fault policy. You cannot expect staff (normally, often, minimum wage) to report their own data breaches, if they will be penalised. It should always be about how can we learn, what can we do better.

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I don't think this is a breach of GDPR, but it is undoubtedly a breach of patient confidentiality which is equally important and will be referred to in employees' contracts.

Razkaz · 18/07/2023 15:31

HariboPotter · 18/07/2023 11:00

This!
Carers need to be able to vent the stress of the job, sometimes the approachcan seem uncaring and callus to an outsider. I guarantee you the carer will care as soon as the door to the patient opens.
Let it go. Don't destroy two lifes for the sake of dignity out of context.

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I'm sorry but you are totally wrong!! My daughter did domiciliary care and she would never talk in that way about a client. You have no idea whether the carer is nice when she goes to the client and it has been proven many times by cameras being installed that some are not very nice at all.