Does anyone else have decidedly average children?

[Dotandtime]

Despite being really quite a determinedly good parent?!

As toddlers both my children were "clever". DS1 knew his letters and numbers (could point to them) before he could speak and he astounded staff with his jigsaw skills in preschool 😆 DS2 walked at 9mo and his nursery said they'd never met such an enquiring mind.

In infant school they were both on the gifted and talented list, which was a thing then, although it was never entirely clear why!

Through junior school they did OK. I turned up for everything supported everything the school did, arranged lots of extracurricular activities had lots of battles over homework By the end of year 6 they both achieved slightly above "expected"

In secondary they seemed to become invisible. Never picked for anything, didnt excel at sport, music, art, we couldn't find their passions. Both did just enough to stay out of trouble but no more and no one seemed to notice that they could/should be doing more. I kept trying, tried to instill a work ethic etc, but there didn't seem to be any consequences or reward at school. They both got above average GCSE grades, but not as good as the Yr 6 SATS suggested they should.

Ds1 wanted to go to Sandhurst and needed 3 Ds at ALevel. That's what he got, but he failed the medical which was a big blow and came just at the start of lockdown. Since then he's worked in various fast food restaurants and coffee shops. He's doing OK, has a management position now, but it's not what you dream of for your kids.

Ds2 left school at 16 to do an apprenticeship. Then he ended up wfh during lockdown which was never going to be great for a young person and I've no idea how an apprenticeship was supposed to work on that basis. It didn't and he dropped out. Then he went to college, but that didn't last and he's doing casual work now.

They're fine, they're good lads, they were never any trouble behaviourwise, they pay their way, they're good to their grandparents etc, I just wonder what I should have done differently to get them a better start in adult life. I see parents who don't seem to have done much differently to me currently reporting their DC's firsts and I wonder why.

I'd like to say it doesn't matter because DC are happy, but I'm not sure they are really, especially DS2.

I'd rather this than then go to university not really knowing what they want to do and get into loads of debt - and then later on if they decide what they want to do be stopped by that. They do sound great and happy and earning their way, presume they are still quite young. I know if loads of young people doing similar now as if you don't "need" a degree without a job in mind, why saddle yourself with the debt just now.

The death of a parent in youth is hard.
Stepping into the adult world is hard.
That's a tough combination.

They're functioning. Be proud, and supportive. Sometimes young people need time to find their feet and work their way up the practical way.

We've been selling a generation a myth of work hard, do well in exams, go to uni, get a well-paid graduate job. It's not a total myth, but it's not the only path and it doesn't work for everyone, and it devalues people that it doesn't work for. It also leads to imbalances in the labour market.
A lot of the young people I know in their 20s/ early 30s have struggled with this expectation at any of the stages.

The problem with "average" is it can brush a lot under the carpet. DS1 is ND with a very spiky profile. Fortunately for him people tend to recognise a fair extent of his traits and accept that he's very bright because he's articulate, but his dyslexia is very evident. DS2 superficially looks more "average" but because he's more shy, people find it harder to recognise his strengths, dismiss his difficulties and thinking he's more average and a bit lazy rather than also having a spiky profile and being inadequately supported and struggling, yet producing average outcomes. I wish he was more average and consistent with what he could do because it would be much simpler for him!
I'm averagely above average. Nothing exceptional!

Jeez I think you need to cut them some slack ! Re the death of their father + Covid.

they are functioning, that is pretty amazing really.

my two are teenagers, doing ok, great plans etc. if they now watched their father get sick and die in the next year I would assume all plans would be out the window. I’d be happy they were happy in some way.

chill out OP. It’s not your fault or theirs.

Does anyone else have decidedly average children?

The answer to this, is, of course - most people. By definition. They may not admit it, they may big themselves and their kids up a lot. But most people do. I think you’re making the mistake of listening to others and they’re boasting and comparing yourself unfavourably. My DH’a friend, for example, goes on and on about how brilliant his DD is and how she’s “flying” at school. But you drill down into the detail and she got a good, but unexceptional, set of GCSE results. So he’s proud of her and that’s lovely. But that’s all that means.

As others have said, sounds like you have two decent sons, who’ve got on with their lives in the face of adversity, which shows courage and resilience. Not to be sniffed at - at all.

Agree wholeheartedly!

You know with your subsequent updates I think they are doing fantastically.

It sounds like school didn’t inspire or nurture them particularly (common in todays modern big overstretched classes sadly) and then they had covid to deal with, the blow of being turned down from army training at the last minute and then the traumatic illness and death of their father.

The fact they haven’t gone off the rails with drunk or drugs and are, despite all that has happened, holding down jobs and still acting as decent kind humans is a massive win. They sound amazing. Many adults would have totally crumbled after all they have endured.

I do understand your disappointment however. It is naive to think the modern world is as generous to those who decent and kind as those who are grittily determined to forge through and excel.

I would honestly focus on getting them some therapy - it’s never too late to access bereavement support so that might be somewhere to start. In the meantime I’d encourage extra curricular stuff and not just the obvious sport, maybe a small class on plumbing or art or French or cooking. Something to engage and broaden their contacts and horizons. Much of this is about confidence. You had it in spades, their dad perhaps less so until he had your support. Lack of confidence doesn’t have to appear as shy and quiet it can be simply not putting yourself forwards for things or taking the easier path job wise to avoid failure.

and I mean this kindly but they may well know you feel a bit disappointed. Kids are very keen at spotting that in a parent. Can you work hard to make sure they know how proud of them you are?

Are they average or did they lose motivation for studying after their Dad died? I think you need to give them a break. They are only 20 and have decades left to find their field.

To give you an example - the grandmother who raised me died 2 weeks before my GCSE exams. I passed them with lots of As and Bs but was predicted all A*s and had it not been for her sudden death and the trauma of needing to deal with people who just didn’t get it I would have got them. I bottled it all up and got average results. As these were STEM subjects I got my pick of universities anyway but my trauma meant I kept needing to resit and eventually dropped out.

Mum was a nightmare in this period. Kept comparing me to my younger siblings. She didn’t get it at all and I couldn’t leave because she needed me to pay towards the bills at home. I applied for any and all jobs and shifts to keep away from her and eventually I found my niche (process automation) through applying the techniques I had learned in factories and warehouses to call centres and using data to justify them. From there I moved into investment banking - worked in London for Coutts for 6 months (they had a call centre in Central London back in the day, it was a prestigious job) and my career in investment banking started when I was 29. During this time I spent some of my ridiculous wages on counselling.

Within 10 years I had a degree, got a prestigious STEM job in Data / AI, and was out-earning all my graduate siblings put together. I’m now earning 6 figures and around the same as my non-grad brother who was also dismissed as below-average.

To the rest of the world mine are average, nothing special. To me? Very special as I get to see them in close-up and notice all the things they do and all the things they are.

❤️

People seriously underestimate the effect of a parental death. I’m so sorry op :(

It also often comes down to the school and friendship groups. I’m assuming they weren’t in private.

Anyway in all honesty op there really isn’t any point worrying about this. If they are smart and have your support then they will find their way, perhaps with some career coaching? So many people change careers anyway and aren’t particularly happy even when they start off in ‘ideal’ jobs.

@Dotandtime it’s nothing you did. Eldest is exactly what you describe, started on the gifted list for maths but by A levels he didn’t like his maths teacher so got a D.
He’s now supervisor in a restaurant and is enjoying it. Not what we wanted for him but it’s his life, I only offer advice if asked and only relating to his job, not you could be x if you applied yourself. It’s been tough at times and covid during his A levels didn’t help.

Youngest was always teased by eldest for being the thick one, but so far seems to have the drive and ambition that eldest lost. Hopefully this will continue and he’ll find something he loves and can progress in.

Their dad just drifts along in his job, hard working, no ambition to progress. But there for the kids, their homework etc. it allowed me to get where I am today. I hated school, didn’t fulfil my academic potential, had no idea what I wanted to do. Fell into my career mid 20s and have been lucky to get to where I am today.

Equally have a friend who’s daughter seems to excel at everything and yes I’m occasionally envious but it’s a pointless waste of energy.

Well what do you consider average?

Or importantly what do you consider above average?

My ds is neither tbh.

Good at subjects he's good at. GCSEs from grade 4 right through to 9.
T level at merit
HNC at pass

However he is a gifted computer programmer and was lucky to get a job that fits around his sport through his t level placement. The talent wasn't luck but the position was being right place at right time.

He's also incredibly gifted in his sport and British level.

However he's disabled and autistic so has many other struggles in life.

I see success as him managing to stick to what he loves and the fact he's dedicated.

And the fact he's happy.

If your boys are happy then they've succeeded in life.

If ds2 wants to do something else then he can. Just encourage him to believe in himself and take risks that some things will pay off and others won't.

There are a lot of people working in cafes and retail and fast food places, all living perfectly happy lives. I myself had various jobs in my twenties, travelled and worked abroad for 3 years, then had kids in late twenties and worked in part time jobs like waitressing when kids were young to cut down cost of childcare etc. wasn’t until my mid 30s that I started a proper career path. Since covid I’ve had 2 promotions and doubles my salary. I’m just saying that there is still time.

As an aside my university hospitality jobs impressed employers far more than other stuff on my CV , for a 'proper graduate' job. You do learn a lot.
Especially when you're dealing with a lot of stressed brides/grooms/families at weddings
...

Your ds1 has a managerial position? It doesn’t matter what line of work that is, I wouldn’t call the skills and responsibility he has to manage as “average”. You should be very proud of him.

You’d be amazed too at what some people who never went to uni can end up earning.

As for your ds2, it can take years to find their way. Is he happy to plod along for now? Uni isn’t for everyone.
When you say other parents are reporting their kids’ firsts, do you mean first class honours? Because if so, I find that so crass, and can you imagine the pressure and stress that that is placing on their dc and younger siblings? I would ignore that completely.
You have to remember too that their father died, and for two young men, this will have had a huge effect on them. Don’t underestimate that. They sound like good lads.

My eldest son wasn’t interested at school didn’t apply himself was really frustrating to watch him. His dad and I are both university educated. But after 6 months of faffing about not knowing what to do after school he just got his Hnc in welding and has 2 more years on his apprenticeship. I pushed him into an engineering access course and he’s a practical lad and def not stupid but that suited him very well.

my second son is even more frustrating. Thinks £££ is just going to fall into his lap with little effort. Maybe now he has a part time job his attitude will change.

no3 son is only 13 and no4 is nd so may never work so will encourage the rest and be happy with what they end up doing. They are young and still have many opportunities so I wouldn’t bank on this being their life careers op maybe some thinking time to go in another direction. Lots of possibilities for them both and my eldest 2 sons went through some pretty full on trauma as kids so I think processing that is important too. I hope your son will get some help when he’s ready, that must be really hard to watch for you but you sound like a fab mum and he’s lucky to have you

I know this is partly light hearted/flippant but it’s also very deep and my heart goes out to you for all that you have been through.

To answer your question- yes my DC are not the high achieving people that they have the potential to be. And I can’t say hand on heart that they are happy either tbh. I have put a shit ton of effort into parenting. Same for my dearest friend who is an utterly awesome dedicated parent. I wonder if we should just have coasted.

But I suspect the heart of it is that the people you are comparing with, are either insecure and posting about their amazing children to make themselves feel better, or have the advantage of lots of money, or just basically got lucky.

I found an email from my late gran the other day telling me how stressed she was about my dad in his late teens, hating his parents, dropping out of uni, moody, flaky, unreliable… he’s a pillar of the community now. Made me feel a lot better.

Good luck and keep smiling OP. You are doing great.

*I am a well educated professional with two degrees, one of which I studied for when theybwere young, so they've had that example. He bumbled around until he was 30 then seemed to fall into a job that brought opportunities, which he did take with a good woman behind him and ended up earning about the same as me.

He never placed much importance on education, as he hadn't needed it. I think we live in a different world now though and those opportunities aren't as available to people without qualifications.*

So their same sex parent - their role model - didn't excel educationally or exhibit much natural drive and motivation but when he had the right people around him took advantage of an opportunity that came up? Kids don't just inherit eye colour and height from their parents, they inherit temperament too.

Your boys could well have their father's laid back attitude as well as following the example of how he lived when he was alive.

Be the 'right person' around them like you were for DH and try to help them find (maybe even make), recognize and take advantage of opportunities coming their way. They are young and the world can be tough. They have lost their dad so pour as much time as you can into being there for them.

Not everyone has ambition and there is nothing wrong with that. It has nothing to do with intelligence, it is just personality. If they are happy being "average" then it will be much easier for them to be happy in life.

The number one thing that matters is mental health because without the capacity to enjoy it everything else is pointless. I think they are doing really well given what has happened. They are ok and functioning. I'm sorry about their father.

They're fine, they're good lads, they were never any trouble behaviourwise, they pay their way, they're good to their grandparents etc

what more do you want? You sound like a very pushy parent. Leave them be and let them find their own way in life. My parents did that and I’m eternally grateful for it

i think degrees are becoming less important. My DH has a high paid successful career and he doesn’t even have A Levels, he worked his way up and gained experience

It depends what you want to do. Some occupations you absolutely need the degrees. I don't mind if my children go to university or not, as long as they are doing something that has meaning for them.

That's exactly how I felt. But most people do work in jobs that don't behave much "meaning", fairly routine, thankless work. I'm not sure either of them find much meaning in their work.

I was a totally average kid. I worked hard at school but was never particularly gifted or talented, I got good grades and good A levels and didn’t go to uni as I know it wasn’t for me. I started working in a supermarket at 16 and have worked my backside off ever since and now work in a good role in Banking

Education or excelling in things isn’t for everyone - if your sons work hard, are decent people and have a good head on their shoulders then I think you’ve done a great job. You can only guide your younger son so far - he’ll find his thing eventually. He’s still very young, let him do that naturally.

But most people do work in jobs that don't behave much "meaning", fairly routine, thankless work.

Most people don't though - most people do find meaning in their work, whatever that is, and the definition of meaning will vary by individual.

I think ensuring they are happy in their life choices is important. So you're not being unreasonable to worry about this.

However, you have all gone through an enormously tough time with the loss of your DH & DF, and Covid at such a pivotal point in their lives (with the resulting affect of DS2 apprenticeship ending).

You are all doing amazingly, considering, and you are a great parent.

I think with time & certainly more support for DS2 who is having a miserable time is it, things will look different for you all 💐