Should I move to America or stay in U.K.?

[LittleGreyGoose]

Hello,

I am applying for a fiancé visa to move to America (once granted I would emigrate, marry my American fiancé, and then adjust my status to permanent resident). I would love some perspective, not only from those who have moved / already live there but also anyone who might be planning (or dreaming!) of emigrating. We could try to settle in the U.K. instead so I want to know I'm doing the right thing, purely from a geographical / political / future-proofing move. I'm trying to look at this dispassionately but I’m sleep-deprived and dealing with post-birth hormones so I can’t think straight!

For context we have a baby and a toddler and would be moving to a liberal city but in a republican state. He has a house there already in a good neighbourhood. Currently I’m renting.
For more context he’s great but I’d be foolish to not consider what happens if it doesn’t work out (I do know that my resident status would be permanent after a few years and not reliant upon being married, for example). For even more context, I have lived in other countries before and am an adventurer at heart so the move itself isn’t an issue! Just now I have children so don’t want to mess it up.

Some initial thoughts:

• I have plenty to like about the U.K. but it feels like we are on a steady and slow decline. This makes me feel emigrating is the best option but I also foresee America having its own wobble. Am I naive to think that America is still a land of opportunity or should we go with ‘better the devil you know Britain’?

• while I have no faith in British politics any more, and still rage about the foot shooting mess that is Brexit, it's not exactly rosy in the US either and if Trump gets back into the White House then will I have just jumped from the frying pan into the fire?

• Or, am I just being melodramatic?! I do worry about forthcoming political and social unrest in America and joke to my fiancé about getting 'militia ready' and how I’m lucky I still have my collection of 90s grunge army jackets, but there are credible murmurings of concern for the stability of the country. At least in the U.K., even if everything is a bit shit, I don't worry about this.

• on a more personal level I’ll be leaving a job that I love and will have to wait until I’m given a green card before being able to work in America (which could take up to a year after we get married). This is fine, in theory - it'll be good to spend that time adjusting with the children, and I may even retrain into something more AI proof (currently in comms / writing). I guess I'm just nervous because I'm choosing to leave employment and a career (albeit temporarily) and be reliant upon someone else.

• and finally, I guess there are all the potential administrative and logistical complications of joining forces with a damn yankee (otherwise known as marrying my fiancé). The kids already have American and British citizenship / passports, U.K. bank accounts, and NHS numbers as well as American social security numbers - I want them to have options to settle in either country as they grow, but am I missing anything?

Thanks for reading of you made it this far! Any insight? Anything I haven’t thought of? Am I focusing on the wrong things? Please be kind. I’m at the tale end of PND and catastrophising like crazy!

If he is the parent to the children and things don't work out, it is possible you could be prevented from returning to the UK with the children.....

Quite honestly, I couldn't. Worse education levels, your child will have to learn how to handle active shooter scenerios at about five, massive racial inequalities, financially crippling healthcare... I just can't see the appeal.

Why don't you marry before moving to the States? You are incredibly vulnerable if you are going to be financially dependent in a foreign country where you're prevented from working.

You couldn't pay me enough to move to a Republican state in the US. I'd be too worried about the consequences for my kids: guns, misogyny and homophobia.

while I agree the UK is a bit of a basket case right now I can’t envisage any world where ditching it to go to the US would be an attractive option.

also as pp said you would be extremely vulnerable either if not allowed to work and/or if things didn’t work out and you wanted to return to the UK with the children

No way would I want to bring up children in American. Being fertile there is a terrifying enough idea. Nope. Never in a million years would I go

I don't want my kids to have to do active shooter drills. I don't want my kids growing up in a country which outs guns above their right to life. I don't want my daughters worrying that they'll be prosecuted for having an abortion. Or my kids feeling they cannot live openly gay/lesbian.

So no, I'd never move to America.

All countries are cyclical in their economies. All countries are struggling at the moment.

I know people think that the uk handle everything the worst but I have a German friend who has a house here, goes home to visit his elderly father in Germany but lives a large part of his life in Spain. He was running a business in Spain when Covid hit and he got locked down there. He had three options, stay, move home to Germany or come back to the UK. He said the UK was by far the best option and he came back here. That's just one person's story, I know, but he splits his time between the 3 countries. Others will have a different story.

Personally, I'd go to the US and get a different experience. Having lived in both countries, you'll then know where you'd most like to be longterm.

Health cover is darned expensive.

I don’t live in the UK so can’t comment on what it’s like to live there but I wouldn’t move my children anywhere where they had to have active shooter drills. The banning of books and the interference with woman’s bodily autonomy would also be concerning to me.

What did he like about the UK?

Lived in both. I’d go back to the US. The UK has such a low wage economy at the moment, it’s very hard to be successful. People with very little knowledge will tell you how expensive American healthcare is. IME (over a number of years and conditions), it was outstanding and insurance covered the vast majority. I miss my American Drs so much! Housing - loads of space, cheap. Cars - big wide roads, cheap gas. Food - plentiful. Services - all set up, pay with your hand in Wholefoods, dry cleaning delivered to the porch. Light years ahead of the failing UK.

I'm English. I've lived in the US both before I had children and then returning to the US 20 years later when I had children. We are now back in the UK and won't be returning.

The US is an incredibly divided country and it is only going to get worse. It wasn't until we came back to the UK that I realised that I never fully relaxed there. We had great health insurance but we still felt vulnerable and worried whether or not things were going to be covered. I hated that there were armed officers based in the children's schools. We lived in a safe area but a member of staff was shot and killed by a complete stranger in our local shop. There was a shooting at a school in our school district. I have a teenage daughter and I absolutely don't want her to be in America where she doesn't have bodily autonomy.

If your marriage doesn't work out and you are living in the US you are unlikely to be able to return to the UK with your children. That's something you might want to consider.

I think a pp makes a very good point. You would be very vulnerable there without being married, unable to work and so employer health insurance scheme. I also would dislike the prevented from leaving with kids if you guys split up. What jobs do you and he do?

You will have no autonomy over your womb, your children run the risk of being gunned down at school, they can have access to semi automatic weapons at a young age, but you can't buy them a kinder egg, they ban books, the health care system is beyond shite, you run the risk of not being able to bring your babies home if it doesn't work out and that is just off the top of my head.

Are you raving mad.

To be honest, I saw him outside Asda so we only chatted for about 15 mins so we didn't go into loads of detail, but I asked him that, and I asked him whether everything is cheaper in the other countries and more organised in Germany (not Spain 😉). Because that's what we hear all the time on MN. And he laughed. He said, no, it definitely isn't. It's better here. You wouldn't want to be anywhere than here.

Now obviously, he did want to be in Spain (his girlfriend was Spanish but he has lived there on and off for the last 10 years) before covid. He doesn't like Germany that much - he finds it's very rigid. But financially, you'd think that would be the best place to go in economically poor times. But no. He's already started a business and he said this is where it's best to be. We were chatting so I didnt press him more. But I've promised I'll arrange a meet up with all our old colleagues so I'll give him a grilling then.

I can't deny, it cheered me up a bit. 🙃🙂 A very little bit.

@TheApplianceofScience - some of what you’re referring to us is very state specific. The country has 300 million people. There are quite a few liberal states! The NHS is so much worse than anything I experienced in the US, ever.

I wouldn’t but it’s personal

What’s right for you won’t be the same for everyone

This. And I’ll add that I have lived there (liberal city, swing state) and it only really dawned on me when I was pregnant, had little kids in daycare doing active shooter drills, there was a mass shooting during a parade near where we lived, there was a carjacking on our block despite the fact that we lived in a really nice neighbourhood etc etc etc. I loved the day to day living there but the rest is all too much and I wouldn’t ever consider moving back because the single best thing I can do to keep my kids safe is to live elsewhere.

Agree with Plastic - lived in both places although currently in uk
Will return to US if chance arises ..
We have just actually paid for health insurance here in the UK for the first time ever as I haven't been able
to get good treatment for a chronic condition ..
The USA is far from perfect but the UK is going to hell in a hand basket right now ....

I do miss the healthcare so much though! The NHS is beyond shit and paying for private here is much more expensive and the coverage is really patchy.

I'll repeat what another poster has said, of it doesn't work out it'll be very likely that you won't be able to return to the UK with the kids and you'll be stuck in the US.

I'm American and I moved the other direction to the UK 15 years ago. Never in a million years for all the money in the world would I move back to the US, sorry. All the reasons you cite for not wanting to live in the UK are leaps and bounds worse in the US. Crime, which has always been worse than the UK, has gotten precipitously worse in the US in recent years. I've lived in some dangerous places around the world and there are places I just wouldn't go in the US now.

Health care and food is awfully expensive. And access to health care, even though you are paying privately for it, is not great. Things have changed since the 'Obamacare' years, so it's better, I think, than when I lived there, but still not great. As much as people complain about the NHS, I've never had better access to health care as living in the UK (and I say this as someone with a background in health policy). I waited 2 years for a biopsy in the US and still had to pay $800 out of pocket for it. That's before you get to gun culture, right wing politics, Mike Pence running for president, lack of a social safety net or support for new parents or early years education. And the culture, the culture is very different. It would be a hard adjustment, even for me now.

On a more practical level, I would not bet on a green card. We looked into my dh moving to the US when we were exploring our options, and it was not necessarily straightforward or cheap.

But really, I wouldn't commit my children and I to living anywhere I'd never lived for life essentially. When I moved to the UK, I did it before we got married and had children. It meant I had several years to adjust and know that the UK was going to be my home forever before we had dc. Once you have dc and are settled in somewhere, it's so much harder/near impossible to go home if you split. Even if dh and I were to divorce now, my life is in the UK. My children are British. All my friends are here. I'd never move anywhere else, husband or no husband. But what happens if you hate it? Is he willing to move back? What if he won't? You and the dc probably wouldn't be able to go without him. What if you split up?

I think it's worth exploring, if you find you really can afford it, but I would go as a tourist on an ESTA for 3 months and not give up all your commitments here until you are certain it's for you. It's a big expensive, stressful move, and I only did it just moving myself, no dc yet.

My son is married to an American and became a us citizen 13 years ago. They both have highly paid jobs ( although a lot goes on childcare) and therefore have good healthcare and standard of living. Yes, the guns thing is always on his mind.
Bear in mind the maternity leave is totally different to the UK. My DIL had about 6 weeks only each time.
He doesn’t have any plan at all to leave.

Also American who moved to the UK, and would never move back. My DC don't have US citizenship on purpose, because I don't want them forever beholden to filing income tax to a country they may never live or work in.

There is no such thing as utopia, but the States doesn't even come close.