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Should I move to America or stay in U.K.?

272 replies

LittleGreyGoose · 13/06/2023 17:04

Hello,

I am applying for a fiancé visa to move to America (once granted I would emigrate, marry my American fiancé, and then adjust my status to permanent resident). I would love some perspective, not only from those who have moved / already live there but also anyone who might be planning (or dreaming!) of emigrating. We could try to settle in the U.K. instead so I want to know I'm doing the right thing, purely from a geographical / political / future-proofing move. I'm trying to look at this dispassionately but I’m sleep-deprived and dealing with post-birth hormones so I can’t think straight!

For context we have a baby and a toddler and would be moving to a liberal city but in a republican state. He has a house there already in a good neighbourhood. Currently I’m renting.
For more context he’s great but I’d be foolish to not consider what happens if it doesn’t work out (I do know that my resident status would be permanent after a few years and not reliant upon being married, for example). For even more context, I have lived in other countries before and am an adventurer at heart so the move itself isn’t an issue! Just now I have children so don’t want to mess it up.

Some initial thoughts:

  • I have plenty to like about the U.K. but it feels like we are on a steady and slow decline. This makes me feel emigrating is the best option but I also foresee America having its own wobble. Am I naive to think that America is still a land of opportunity or should we go with ‘better the devil you know Britain’?
  • while I have no faith in British politics any more, and still rage about the foot shooting mess that is Brexit, it's not exactly rosy in the US either and if Trump gets back into the White House then will I have just jumped from the frying pan into the fire?
  • Or, am I just being melodramatic?! I do worry about forthcoming political and social unrest in America and joke to my fiancé about getting 'militia ready' and how I’m lucky I still have my collection of 90s grunge army jackets, but there are credible murmurings of concern for the stability of the country. At least in the U.K., even if everything is a bit shit, I don't worry about this.
  • on a more personal level I’ll be leaving a job that I love and will have to wait until I’m given a green card before being able to work in America (which could take up to a year after we get married). This is fine, in theory - it'll be good to spend that time adjusting with the children, and I may even retrain into something more AI proof (currently in comms / writing). I guess I'm just nervous because I'm choosing to leave employment and a career (albeit temporarily) and be reliant upon someone else.
  • and finally, I guess there are all the potential administrative and logistical complications of joining forces with a damn yankee (otherwise known as marrying my fiancé). The kids already have American and British citizenship / passports, U.K. bank accounts, and NHS numbers as well as American social security numbers - I want them to have options to settle in either country as they grow, but am I missing anything?

Thanks for reading of you made it this far! Any insight? Anything I haven’t thought of? Am I focusing on the wrong things? Please be kind. I’m at the tale end of PND and catastrophising like crazy!

OP posts:
Delphinium20 · 13/06/2023 19:06

*desert

I must be hungry...

AcrossthePond55 · 13/06/2023 19:10

Born/raised in US (California), lived in Germany for a year in the 70s. I still love living here and at this point wouldn't move anywhere else. BUT I live in a 'blue' state (albeit in a 'red' county) and our economy is thriving.

Healthcare is excellent and our insurance carried over into retirement plus now we're on Medicare, too. This means we have little to no out of pocket expenses. I can see a specialist of my choice at the drop of a hat, no long waits, and complete choice of where I want to be treated. From what I've read on MN, MH care via the NHS in the UK is abysmal. Here, you can get an appointment with a psychiatrist or counselor within days, not months or a year. My son's insurance has a 'cap' of $3000 out of pocket. He was recently in a terrible accident and to date has accrued bills of over $800k (and still in treatment). Of this, he will pay no more than $3000. His insurance will pick up the rest. I'd say he pays around $3500 per year to cover himself and his wife. Pretty good return on investment, I'd say. So, for the most part insurance does do its job here to keep your costs down and your choices unlimited. You just have to be an educated consumer.

Because we're such a huge country the cost of living varies greatly. What may be affordable in the MidWest would be outrageously expensive in California or New York. The same goes for education. Some areas have outstanding schools others you wouldn't send your dog to. You just have to choose where you live wisely and focus on the areas that fit your needs.

As far as violence goes, yes, we have a problem. Especially a gun problem. But by and large the majority of the locations in the US are relatively low crime areas. There are plenty of safe places to live, and others where I wouldn't live for a mint of money. Probably the same the world over. As with all news reporting 'if it bleeds, it leads'. I don't look at the horrific event that happened in the UK today or some of the reports I've read about 'knife crime' and think that every UK city is rife with stabbings or people being mowed down.

My main concern for a female in the US is reproductive rights. I wouldn't live in a Republican state if you paid me if I was a woman for whom a pregnancy is at all possible. If you look at a map of the US with regards to the states that have restricted abortion rights you can see exactly where I mean. And for many women in those states they are 'landlocked', meaning that it's not just a quick drive across state lines to access abortion services. For many of them the journey would be impossible, either financially or due to not being able to 'disappear' for a few days quietly. And many of these states are now poking their noses into women's private lives and passing legislation intending to scare doctors into violating medical confidentiality or providing advice regarding termination options. That, IMO, is the biggest problem facing the US today.

I also think that the issue of child custody for someone who may want to return to their home country in the event of a separation is something to be seriously considered. US courts are unlikely to grant permission for that to happen if the other parent is even remotely 'involved' with the DC. In this case the children also have US passports, making it even less likely that the OP would be able to return to the UK. Shoot, many divorce decrees forbid moving a certain number of miles, to the next county, or out of the state.

All the OP can do is consider the larger picture and hopefully choose wisely.

heartofglass23 · 13/06/2023 19:15

If you go and split you'll lose your DCs.

I'd never risk it.

I've seen horror stories unfold on old MN threads.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 13/06/2023 19:20

Most of your replies are going to come from people who don't know what it's actually like to live in the US right now. The Living Overseas forum on here is much better for this question as you get replies from people who actually know more than you do right now, as opposed to just uninformed opinions which this thread is already replete with.

Also things vary wildly between states. I could tell you how fabulous New England has been for raising children, but that doesn't help you much if you're moving to Austin TX or Greenville NC.

One correction for you BTW. On a K-1 visa you can apply for a work permit if you do want to work. That's how I originally moved here.

Personally I've been very happy with the US as a place to raise children, and am very relieved we left the UK when we did. It's nice that my now-adult kids have the option of moving back to the UK if they choose, but none of them has been at all tempted so far. I've found the people friendly, the education system excellent especially when it comes to SEN, the job opportunities have been fantastic, the healthcare has opened my eyes to how truly dire the NHS has become (and that's speaking as someone who worked in the NHS before leaving), and the lifestyle is like nothing we could have experienced in the UK.

I can tell you that making the decision to move was incredibly difficult. You have to accept that there are some things you just won't be able to predict, and that small things that are unrelated to which country you're living in and over which you have no control might make your life much happier or unhappier. Attitude is incredibly important, but you know that if you've already lived abroad.

Good luck with the decision and if you do decide to move, join us on the Living Overseas forum where lots of people can help answer your questions.

Labraradabrador · 13/06/2023 19:20

Fwiw a big draw for me to return to the states is healthcare and education- in my experience both are FAR better in the US than UK. Healthcare is more expensive, but quality much higher - I am terrified of getting sick in the UK. Personally I would rather pay for good insurance and have care when I need it.

politics is politics, and I don’t know that would be a big factor in my decision. A bigger question is whether you can see a good life there for you - expatriating is no small thing

fyn · 13/06/2023 19:21

I am British but went through the American school system before moving back aged 15 (year 11) for my parents work. I much preferred the school system but I was in AP and Honors classes. I found British school wasn’t as hard to the point that I sat year 10 and 11 in one year when we returned (about ten years ago now).

The quality of life was much better but in hindsight we were quite privileged. Long summers on the lake, at friends beach houses and everyday and our neighbourhood club with a big pool. We did active shooter drills and hurricane drills but I never thought too much about it. I’d move back tomorrow if we could although we still have a family lake house so visit lots!

NeverendingCircus · 13/06/2023 19:29

I'd go!
I'd probably marry first.
I'd also look into legal advice on continuing doing freelance or WFH comms and writing for your UK employer, keeping UK bank account, paying UK tax. Could you do that legally and live in USA until your green card comes through?

If not, get very clear indeed with your fiance that you are in no way a second class citizen if you become a SAHP for a couple of years until you get your green card. Ensure you have full access to any accounts into which his salary is paid.

Even the loveliest men can 'forget' you need as much money as they do to live on, buy clothes, care for DC etc and you don't ever want to be in a situation where you have to negotiate for a fair income or ask permission to make a reasonable purchase.

Pallisers · 13/06/2023 19:29

A lot depends on where you are moving to. I live in a liberal city in a blue state. I am very happy here. Lovely place to rear our children. I would be very very reluctant to move to a blue city in a red state. ESPECIALLY if it is Austin, Texas. Texas and other states are deliberately stripping autonomy from cities, towns and districts to stop blue cities ignoring the ultra right agenda. I would not want to be pregnant in Texas right now. You have a miscarriage, you are at severe risk of not receiving life-saving treatment. Google it. There are several women suing whose stories (all much-wanted pregnancies) are heartbreaking. Guns are a huge problem there too.

I know MN won't believe it but there are places in the US where it is really nice to live - and you don't need to be a millionaire either. Massachusetts had a health care mandate way before Obamacare (instituted by a republican governor). My dogwalker whose wife is a teacher had heart valve replacement done as soon as it was needed with no big bills. Preventative care is also excellent. I volunteer with older people (as in they are volunteers too). All of them are covered by medicare and all of them receive excellent health care.

Honestly, the heat in some of the southern states would bother me too. And that is also going to get worse.

Also not married, you'd be vulnerable. And of course if you split, you may not be able to move home.

worstofbothworlds · 13/06/2023 19:35

FlounderingFruitcake · 13/06/2023 17:59

I do miss the healthcare so much though! The NHS is beyond shit and paying for private here is much more expensive and the coverage is really patchy.

You're joking!
Even if you have very expensive healthcare, you still have to deal with working out where you can get your treatment done, how to pay for it, whether it will be authorised etc. etc.
Several of my family members have long term health conditions and even things like pods and pumps for diabetes are completely free in the UK. Even with excellent healthcare (for which you'd be paying huge sums) you would NEVER get that without copays in the US.

I was going to say the three words I'd use were healthcare, healthcare, and healthcare, but actually I will also say: food prices unless you live in the sticks (used to be much cheaper in the US, now much cheaper in the UK), guns, education (things like phonics and child-centred early learning are years behind in the US), health in general (when you never walk anywhere and have huge portion sizes it will take a toll on your health), and of course the government. You either get an elderly man led by the trans lobby or an elderly man led by the contents of his trousers! I actually like that Liz Truss was outlived by a lettuce - we can at least get rid of politicians easily in the UK.

Claire2356 · 13/06/2023 19:35

I lived in the US for 20 years and would never move back for the same reasons pp have mentioned (guns, women’s rights, expensive healthcare, overworking/no holiday, racism etc). However, I think it comes down to if you’d regret not going if you decided to stay. There’s good and bad about both the US and the UK and it really comes down to where “home” is for you and where you would be most happy.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 13/06/2023 19:37

I'd also look into legal advice on continuing doing freelance or WFH comms and writing for your UK employer, keeping UK bank account, paying UK tax. Could you do that legally and live in USA until your green card comes through?

A fiancé on a K1 visa can only work if they have a work permit, whether it's for a UK or US employer.

You can keep a UK bank account.

You pay taxes based on residency so you won't pay UK taxes, but you can choose to continue paying voluntary NI contributions.

The only thing in all of this that really changes once the OP has a green card is that she can work without having to get a work permit.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 13/06/2023 19:39

Even if you have very expensive healthcare, you still have to deal with working out where you can get your treatment done, how to pay for it, whether it will be authorised etc. etc.

On the contrary, I've found it much quicker and easier to get healthcare in the US than in the UK. And mine is pretty bog-standard health insurance. It isn't at all complicated working out where to get treatment done or how to pay for it or whether it will be authorised. I can only think of one thing that was not authorised in our 16 years here and it was an experimental treatment that you could not get in the UK either.

MumofCrohnie · 13/06/2023 19:57

I would never go, with a son who gets disability benefits and has LCWRA he is far far better off here, and a daughter with Crohn's I know that a) ultra processed foods are even worse there and b) many health insurance companies are often very reluctant to authorise biologicals. Plus dd's health insurance as an adult would be absolutely crippling.

I think the US is probably brilliant if you are young and healthy and have no chronic conditions. Sick pay, maternity benefits, holiday entitlement etc are all way, way better here.

RedRiverSun · 13/06/2023 20:03

This really isn't the forum to ask on. The level of anti-American sentiment is ridiculous. It's also like asking should I move to 'Europe'? The US is vast and has very different laws including those pertaining to guns and women's rights. You would really need to tell us where you're considering for anyone to be able to give an educated opinion.

I've live in the US in a many different places and also in the U.K. for 15 years. For healthcare I'd take the US any day. It's just a different system. But it's a well funded system that works where accessing care is easy. Yes you will have co-pays like £20 to see the GP BUT you will pay A LOT less in income tax. If we lived in the US our tax bill would be 40% cheaper than it is here.

Schools vary wildly from state to state and even town to town. Massachusetts state schools do so well they file as their own country in the PISA results and are in line with some of the Far Eastern countries for maths. Some of the Deep South states do so poorly they are below developing nations. It's a HUGE spread. In general you will find smaller classes in the primary years. 30 in a class is fairly unheard of unless it's an overcrowded inner city school. I'd take a prep school education here over a state elementary education in the US. But I'd take US secondary education any day. They stay so much broader for so much longer and have a far more enriched curriculum.

It's unpleasant to be poor anywhere but I'd say more unpleasant in the US. It's far nicer to be middle class in the US than here.

Be brave and give us the state!

Thoughtful2355 · 13/06/2023 20:05

Couldn't pay me to emigrate to the US, I know everywhere has they're problems but USA is just one big fail of a country.

Gracewithoutend · 13/06/2023 20:08

Most of your replies are going to come from people who don't know what it's actually like to live in the US right now.

Personally I've been very happy with the US as a place to raise children, and am very relieved we left the UK when we did. It's nice that my now-adult kids have the option of moving back to the UK...

Hmmm. So people who havent lived in the US or a while don't know enough to comment about living in the US. But people who haven't lived in the UK for a whole do know enough to comment about living in the UK.

You've acclimatised well. Americans always think they know how much better their way of life is than other countries. 😄

MissConductUS · 13/06/2023 20:09

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 13/06/2023 19:39

Even if you have very expensive healthcare, you still have to deal with working out where you can get your treatment done, how to pay for it, whether it will be authorised etc. etc.

On the contrary, I've found it much quicker and easier to get healthcare in the US than in the UK. And mine is pretty bog-standard health insurance. It isn't at all complicated working out where to get treatment done or how to pay for it or whether it will be authorised. I can only think of one thing that was not authorised in our 16 years here and it was an experimental treatment that you could not get in the UK either.

I'm an American and this is my experience too. I use a large medical practice in my area that has about 200 doctors, their own lab and MRI/CT scanners, outpatient surgery center, etc. My insurance covers every service they provide. They handle everything with the insurance company. I can book with specialists directly over the phone or through the web portal. I've never waited more than a week for a non-urgent appointment.

Medical practices in the US compete for patients. If they made it that difficult to get care people would leave for another practice.

ButterflyBitch · 13/06/2023 20:13

Chinam · 13/06/2023 17:31

I don’t live in the UK so can’t comment on what it’s like to live there but I wouldn’t move my children anywhere where they had to have active shooter drills. The banning of books and the interference with woman’s bodily autonomy would also be concerning to me.

This. You’d be bloody mad to move to the US and I’m saying that knowing the state of the UK at the mo.

Puffalicious · 13/06/2023 20:15

So interesting reading this. My friend is from the US. She met her husband here when she came to Art school for a year. They moved to NY for some years to live a young, slightly wild life, but as soon as they married they came back to the UK to have their children. She says they had decided this early on.

Kids are now 14 and 17 and she's never had a desire to move home. Her parents are here regularly and her sister moved here after she did. She lived in a Liberal state but still says she'd never move back- culturally more than anything.

My DS1 is in N Carolina at Camp America right now, and his musings about how different it is culturally is so interesting. I did the same thing 33 years ago and lots hasn't really changed- still quite traditional male/female roles; you need to keep your political views quiet with a small p; little diversity; little LGBTQ+ visibility etc. He's just finished 1st year at uni here and is quite opinionated, so is finding it rather different.

On another note, folk running down the NHS: DS2 has just snapped his ACL (rugby injury). He had an MRI within 4 days and saw the orthopaedic surgeon within a week. He'll have surgery within 8 weeks with one of the top orthopaedic surgeons in our large city. Certainly not shabby. Friend says we'd pay a lot in the US. DC3 has epilepsy- she says drugs alone would bankrupt us.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 13/06/2023 20:16

Hmmm. So people who havent lived in the US or a while don't know enough to comment about living in the US. But people who haven't lived in the UK for a whole do know enough to comment about living in the UK.

You've acclimatised well. Americans always think they know how much better their way of life is than other countries.

I base my knowledge of UK life on what I read on MN about life in the UK, which accords pretty accurately with what my 4 siblings, my husband's 4 siblings, my parents, my friends and my wider family tell me, and what I see on my regular visits.

Calliope23 · 13/06/2023 20:17

@Worstofbothworlds - pods and pumps are definitely not free everywhere in the uk... you are very lucky if your family members are getting them free at point of need ...

I ship a lot of supplies from the USA for Diabetes as I cannot get them here .. the standard of general health Care in the USA is far far above what we get here after a fight ...

SunnyEgg · 13/06/2023 20:18

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 13/06/2023 20:16

Hmmm. So people who havent lived in the US or a while don't know enough to comment about living in the US. But people who haven't lived in the UK for a whole do know enough to comment about living in the UK.

You've acclimatised well. Americans always think they know how much better their way of life is than other countries.

I base my knowledge of UK life on what I read on MN about life in the UK, which accords pretty accurately with what my 4 siblings, my husband's 4 siblings, my parents, my friends and my wider family tell me, and what I see on my regular visits.

It’s varied, I wouldn’t go by here either

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 13/06/2023 20:19

I share your concern about the way the UK is going, the aftermath of Brexit etc, but I would not contemplate going to the US right now - the political situation is batshit and the gun laws are insane.

I've lived abroad previously in several different countries, and there are lots of places I might consider moving to. The US categorically isn't one of them.

Bubblyb00b · 13/06/2023 20:24

Well, I lived there and had a chance to move to US permanently but:

  1. Guns - really, really fucking scary. News of shooting every day. children with bullet proof backpacks learning active shooter drills at 5.
  2. Healthcare - complicated and inefficient. I remember being ill and being taken to hospital but instead of rushing in to have a treatment having to sit in the nice reception type space discussing my insurance. And after that, being bombarded with bills as my insurance decided they won't pay or something. Fuck that. BTW - had private insurance in the UK, cancelled it as it was useless and got better treatment (by mile) on the NHS.
  3. Serious segregation by class, race, cultural background. At lest that was my experience. Different groups hardly ever interact, and American "posh" people are really something else, snobby abut also very basic (sorry, I know what I sound like)).
  4. Employment - you basically have no rights. No sick leave (set amount/ year and only available pro rata); no maternity leave; no notice - can get sacked on the day.
  5. On the whole, very small islands of sanity in large cities surrounded by scary Hills Have Eyes loons.
Believe it or not, I actually love America, its huge and beautiful and people are generally nice - but I would not live there, only visit. And especially would not want to raise my kids there.
Tophy124 · 13/06/2023 20:42

I’d really need to know where in the US you are looking at moving, as it varies so widely!!

But my child has significantly more opportunities here than he ever would in the Uk, the healthcare is far superior and private school is more affordable. I also wouldn’t purposefully make my child fatherless and my husband had to come stateside. He earns significantly more here vs the UK and our quality of life reflects that. His work company give him 3 months off for each child he has. We can afford for me to be a SAHM here and have a large house vs the UK small house and my child would be in nursery for me to work.

A lot of people are writing stereotypical things to you, but only you will know what your husbands career etc opportunities are.