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Ukraine Invasion: Part 41

998 replies

MagicFox · 06/06/2023 13:13

Welcome to thread 41 with new guidance thrashed out with regular posters to keep us on track :-) Hope you all approve!

  1. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events
  1. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content
  1. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful
OP posts:
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161
DuncinToffee · 24/06/2023 09:54

I found this an interesting thread with what if scenarios

twitter.com/samagreene/status/1672504585972338689?s=20

Ok. Time for a bit of political analysis.

What happens if Prigozhin’s adventure ends up bringing down Putin? Without trying to predict the future, it is possible to map out some plausible scenarios.

(A , duh)

Solrock · 24/06/2023 09:54

And from the Wagner Telegram channel:

"Putin made the wrong choice. All the worse for him. Soon we will have a new president"

So, it looks like the removal of Putin is now an explicit aim of the mutiny.

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2023 09:56

Anton Gerashenko at gerashenko_en

Today, Ukraine has become a few steps closer to complete Victory over Russia and complete return of its territories, including Crimea.

A vile, but useful in this case monster - Prigozhin, raised an armed rebellion against Shoigu and Gerasimov, captured the headquarters of the Southern Military District of the Russian Federation, and now his advanced groups are heading towards Voronezh, and then towards Moscow.

In fact, this is a rebellion, not against war criminals Shoigu and Gerasimov, but against Putin himself, whose place Prigozhin has long wanted to take and create his own regime in Russia.

What are the true motives of Prigozhin that prompted him to launch an armed rebellion? I think that he, as a person who has known Putin personally for more than 30 years, treats him with contempt and sees that Putin, having unleashed a bloody massacre against Ukraine, for the sake of his illusory greatness, no longer controls the situation.

In addition, Prigozhin, who has already participated in military coups in Africa for 10 years, decided that if it was possible to seize power in Sudan or the Central African Republic, then it is possible to do it in Russia as well, which Putin has lowered during his 23 years of rule to the level of puppet tropical dictatorships .

An interesting question - what exactly was the reason for the mutiny? Yesterday at 7:30 p.m., Prigozhin published a video showing footage of a rocket attack on the rear camp of the "Wagner" military unit, as a result of which his fighters were allegedly killed.

I am convinced that this provocation was organized by Prigozhin himself, because there was no sense for Shoigu and Gerasimov to attack one of the dozens of military camps of the "Wagner" military group.

If they really wanted to solve their problem with the bloody clown, they would have to eliminate him himself, not attack some tent in the forest and give Prigozhin an excuse to start a riot.

Prigozhin had been preparing for this mutiny for a long time. It is for this reason that he has been raising his profile for the past six months by accusing Shoigu and Gerasimov of sabotage, and gaining the trust of the Russian military, who are not satisfied with the way the criminal war against Ukraine is being waged. It was for this reason that he opened Wagner centers in all subjects of the Russian Federation and recently toured half of Russia.

Prigozhin has crossed his Rubicon, and will not turn from his path until he is physically destroyed or he achieves his goals.

In my opinion, what are the further possible options for the development of the situation?

The first: Putin's power today and tomorrow will crumble like a house of cards. Prigozhin's troops will enter Moscow, seize the Kremlin, the Ministry of Defense and all power, and Prigozhin will appoint himself the military dictator of Russia, on the basis that Putin cannot perform his duties due to a sharp deterioration in his health.

The second: Putin will give an order to physically destroy Prigozhin, which has already been effectively declared an outlaw, with a blow from "Kinzhal" or "Iskander", as well as to destroy from the air the PMC convoys that are now heading from Russian South towards Moscow. I say from the air, since it is unlikely that any ground unit of the Russian army would dare to engage in open combat with the experienced and strictly disciplined mercenaries of the Wagner Army.

The third option: Putin will abandon the plan to physically destroy Prigozhin and try to come to an agreement with him, fulfilling his demands to remove Shoigu, Gerasimov and other ineffective war criminals, replacing them with Prigozhin's proteges, in order to increase military pressure on Ukraine and our allies.

This will still mean the actual transfer of power to the hands of Prigozhin and the departure of Putin from power, and in the future the possibility of being shot together with Kabayeva for treason, as the Ceausescu couple was shot in 1989, on the second day after the beginning of the uprising.

You can choose which of the three options is the most beneficial for Ukraine, or write your vision in the comments.

In my opinion, all three options that I mentioned above only strengthen Ukraine's position and bring our Victory closer.

If Prigozhin seizes power in the Kremlin, it will with a 99% probability lead to the collapse of Russia, which I have predicted since 24 February, 2022.

Kadyrov and the leaders of other national subjects of the federation in the Caucasus, Povolzhie (Volga region), and Siberia, know that Prigozhin considers all of them second-class people and will easily give an order to shoot and destroy any of them. Therefore, they will negotiate with the local commanders of the armed forces of the Russian Federation, the Russian Guards, the FSB, and declare their independence from Prigozhin.
An armed war of clans will begin for power, for resources, there will be such chaos and disorder, compared to which the year 1917 will seem like a fairy tale.

If, after all, Putin gives the order and Prigozhin is eliminated, then the Russian army, which was still somehow holding on due to the belief in some improvements, will completely lose the remnants of faith in the possibility of winning in the confrontation with us and our NATO allies
Next will be our successful offensive, the total overthrow of the remnants of the Russian front, and the Russians and together with their henchmen will run and stop only after crossing our borders.

Onwards to Victory!

TokyoSushi · 24/06/2023 09:58

I'm at a football tournament, but following, I can't quite believe it!

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2023 10:01

So Prigozhin has spent a long time trying to gain the confidence of the army. He has links with some of the intelligence agencies - whether they will support him is worth watching.

But Kadyrov is Putins personal army. They know they are screwed if Putin goes.

So whilst it looks like the Russian army haven't been resisting yet, there is likely to be.

Plus it's a long drive to Moscow on the M4 leaving the column vulnerable. There are reports that Russian helicopters were told they were hitting Ukrainians not Wagner... There seems to have been strikes on the M4.

So ANYTHING could unfold yet.

But if you were a Russian soldier in Ukraine right now youd be wondering wtf .

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 24/06/2023 10:02

Wagner have openly said they want to replace Putin now

Ukraine Invasion: Part 41
MagicFox · 24/06/2023 10:05

Oh wow @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar

OP posts:
Igotjelly · 24/06/2023 10:05

assuming (and it’s a big assumption) that this isn’t some sort of psyops/collusion between Putin and Prigozhin, it seems the latter has thrown all his cards on the table. I do wonder what assurances he has of success and from where, Prigozhin might be power Hungary but he’s no idiot.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/06/2023 10:05

There is no way Prigozhin and Putin are in this together.

there is no way out for Prigozhin

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 24/06/2023 10:07

@Solrock Oops sorry, you'd already pointed that out!

it's all moving fast ...

Natsku · 24/06/2023 10:07

Yeah this really doesn't look like this could be something that they are in together on. I wonder what will the result be, this is exciting!

Solrock · 24/06/2023 10:09

And I don’t think anyone on the thread has yet mentioned that the Lukashenko family private jet left Belarus for Türkiye just after midnight. Could be nothing…

MagicFox · 24/06/2023 10:10

Prigozhin would hardly be a happy replacement for Putin, but the infighting and internal implosion can only be good for Ukraine

OP posts:
Moonandstarzz · 24/06/2023 10:10

Just caught up with all the messages. Hopefully this is good news for the Ukrainians, must be terrifying for the normal Russian people, this Prigozhin sounds worse than Putin.. I hadn't heard of Prigozhin before this morning.

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2023 10:12

Question: why did Ukraine halt their offensive?

The timing is interesting. Did they have wind of something?

borntobequiet · 24/06/2023 10:20

Prigozhin has crossed his Rubicon

From the piece posted by RTB above. Rings very true.

Chatillon · 24/06/2023 10:21

I always love your lateral thinking and analyses RTB.

minsmum · 24/06/2023 10:22

https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1672445879465431044 third person says you need to put down your breakfast so you don't choke Khadrovs Azmat forces have been tasked with making sure Prigohzin does not reach Moscow

https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1672445879465431044

Chatillon · 24/06/2023 10:22

Putin: This is treason!

Prighozin: No its just a Special Military Uprising.

DrBlackbird · 24/06/2023 10:23

An armed war of clans will begin for power, for resources, there will be such chaos and disorder, compared to which the year 1917 will seem like a fairy tale

Really, for Ukraine, isn’t Moscow taking out Prigozhin the best outcome? The mutiny would give Putin an excuse for blaming Wagner for everything and to pull out of Ukraine and call the military back home. He’d need Russian troops to feel secure against anyone else attempting the same and his mind would refocus on domestic affairs.

Prigozhin in charge of Russia and all of the military operations is more frightening. Who knows what he’d do but Wagner has been more formidable in Ukraine.

Russia collapsing into chaos more frightening still. Not just for Ukraine but for global security.

minsmum · 24/06/2023 10:23

And my bad typing continues

Willmafrockfit · 24/06/2023 10:24

DrBlackbird · 24/06/2023 10:23

An armed war of clans will begin for power, for resources, there will be such chaos and disorder, compared to which the year 1917 will seem like a fairy tale

Really, for Ukraine, isn’t Moscow taking out Prigozhin the best outcome? The mutiny would give Putin an excuse for blaming Wagner for everything and to pull out of Ukraine and call the military back home. He’d need Russian troops to feel secure against anyone else attempting the same and his mind would refocus on domestic affairs.

Prigozhin in charge of Russia and all of the military operations is more frightening. Who knows what he’d do but Wagner has been more formidable in Ukraine.

Russia collapsing into chaos more frightening still. Not just for Ukraine but for global security.

very true

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 24/06/2023 10:24

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2023 10:12

Question: why did Ukraine halt their offensive?

The timing is interesting. Did they have wind of something?

What's been said by Ukrainian High Command is that there was a pause to assess and plan. Make of that what you will. Prigozhin's comments yesterday about Russia creating this war in the context of the recent upheavals do make one wonder if there's been some minimal contact about this between High Command and Priz. Some channel of communication already existed; there was a Wagner-Ukraine exchange of POWs where Russia was not involved.

Wonder if Lukashenko and Órban are feeling uneasy now about their choice of loyalties.

DuncinToffee · 24/06/2023 10:24

This thread is moving fast but has Putin basically admitted that Rostov is now under Wagner control?

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 24/06/2023 10:25

Yes, @DuncinToffee

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