Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 41

998 replies

MagicFox · 06/06/2023 13:13

Welcome to thread 41 with new guidance thrashed out with regular posters to keep us on track :-) Hope you all approve!

  1. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events
  1. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content
  1. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful
OP posts:
Thread gallery
161
Igotjelly · 24/06/2023 13:38

minsmum · 24/06/2023 13:37

Like rats leaving a ship.

Chatillon · 24/06/2023 13:40

I am not a Twitter user, or much else to be honest. But one question / thought....

Where is Peskov today?

notimagain · 24/06/2023 13:40

Igotjelly · 24/06/2023 12:49

UK has called a COBRA meeting to discuss the developing situation. They clearly think it’s serious.

Yep, I think the idea of a major nuclear power might be coming apart at the seams will be worrying a lot of people...

Bet the various intelligence communities will be earning their money this weekend

notimagain · 24/06/2023 13:43

minsmum · 24/06/2023 13:37

Might be, but what's been seen on Flightradar over Russia has been misinterpreted a few times over the last 18 months so the"?" is valid.

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2023 13:43

Wagner claiming that

most of the Russian Army units in the Lipetsk region have switched sides and joined the Wagner Group military column heading toward Moscow

this is still debatable at this point.

MagicFox · 24/06/2023 13:44

New thread reminder: Ukraine Invasion: Part 42 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4834493-ukraine-invasion-part-42

OP posts:
Natsku · 24/06/2023 13:46

Chatillon · 24/06/2023 13:35

I thought we British had eaten them all?

Grin
MagicFox · 24/06/2023 13:46

Jessica Berlin - she has a point: "Prigozhin would not be doing this if he didn’t know he has back up.
Let’s wait and see who that is."

OP posts:
Chatillon · 24/06/2023 13:49

MagicFox · 24/06/2023 13:46

Jessica Berlin - she has a point: "Prigozhin would not be doing this if he didn’t know he has back up.
Let’s wait and see who that is."

Hence my question - Where is Peskov?

He whose son is a Wagner member.

MagicFox · 24/06/2023 13:50

Gideon Rachman just now in the FT. It's behind a paywall so have copied and pasted.

**

Vladimir Putin has created his own worst nightmare
With the Wagner rebellion, Russian president has provoked the insurrection he has long feared
Fifteen months ago, Vladimir Putin’s army was on the outskirts of Kyiv. Now the Russian leader is struggling to maintain control in Moscow.
The rebellion of Wagner forces, led by Yevgeny Prigozhin, is the final confirmation of how catastrophically wrong the war in Ukraine has gone for Putin. Even if the Russian leader prevails in the immediate battle against Wagner, it is hard to believe that Putin can ultimately survive this kind of humiliation. His prestige, his power, even his life, are now on the line.
The historic irony is that Putin’s own actions have brought about the thing he fears most: an insurrection that threatens both the Russian state and his own personal power.
Putin’s fear of a “colour revolution” in Russia dates back almost 20 years. Fittingly, its origins lie in Ukraine. The Orange revolution of 2004 a popular, democratic uprising against a rigged election in Ukraine sparked a paranoia in the Russian president that has steadily intensified over the years.
Ever since, Putin has been haunted by two linked fears. First, that Ukraine would slip irrevocably from Russia’s grasp. Second, that a successful pro-democracy uprising in Kyiv would be a dry run for the same thing in Moscow.
His decision to invade Ukraine in 2022 was an effort to finally snuff out both dangers — by installing a pro-Russian, authoritarian government in Kyiv.
As a former intelligence operative and conspiracy theorist, Putin was convinced that the origins of any “colour revolution” whether in Ukraine or Russia would lie in Washington. His refusal to believe that Ukrainians might have agency or power led to his fatal underestimation of the strength of the country’s resistance to a Russian invasion.
As well as underestimating Ukrainian strength, Putin drunk on the mythology of the Red Army of the 1940s fatally overestimated Russia’s own military power. The failure of the Russian army opened the door for the Wagner group to enter the war. This gave Prigozhin his own power base and propaganda platform and ultimately allowed him to turn on the Russian state.
Putin’s pitch to the Russian people has always been that he rescued the country from the anarchy of the 1990s. But what is happening now is reminiscent of the failed military and hardliner coup against Mikhail Gorbachev in 1991, when Boris Yeltsin mounted a tank outside parliament. At that point, the people of Moscow played a vital role in the unfolding events. The reaction of the Russian population to the Prigozhin uprising will be a crucial and, as yet, unknown part of this story.
In his own first remarks on the Prigozhin uprising, Putin looked back to an even darker precedent: the alleged “stab in the back” that ended the Russian war effort in 1917 and pitched the country into revolution and civil war. These words were meant to convey firmness of purpose. But they were hardly reassuring.
The Wagner insurrection will give hope to opponents of the Putin regime — both inside and outside Russia. For the Ukrainian military, whose counter-offensive has failed to break through, this looks like a historic opportunity. If Russia’s forces turn on each other, or are pulled back from the frontline to defend Putin, they could fold in eastern Ukraine.
Political prisoners in Russia, such as Alexei Navalny or Vladimir Kara-Murza, must also have a new sense of hope and opportunity. They, too, may play a part over the coming months.
Prigozhin, of course, is no liberal. His rhetoric is stridently nationalist and imperialist. The Wagner forces have a well-earned reputation for brutality. But Prigozhin like Putin has now unleashed forces that he will struggle to control.

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 24/06/2023 13:56

Thanks so much MagicFox.

PerkingFaintly · 24/06/2023 13:57

For the new thread, that is. And everything else too!

MagicFox · 24/06/2023 13:59

That's my cue to share the link again, Perking :-)

Ukraine Invasion: Part 42 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4834493-ukraine-invasion-part-42

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 24/06/2023 14:01

Failing to understand that the people one sees as quintessentially colonial subjects, might have their own agency, is a mistake many powers have made.

MissConductUS · 24/06/2023 14:08

There's a certain irony in the fact that Putin has been playing for time, hoping that Western support for Ukraine would collapse, and now political and military support for him is collapsing.

As ye sow...

Marmablade · 24/06/2023 15:13

Is there a link between the nuclear weapons and this happening now? Or am I worrying over nothing?

Igotjelly · 24/06/2023 15:16

Marmablade · 24/06/2023 15:13

Is there a link between the nuclear weapons and this happening now? Or am I worrying over nothing?

Which nuclear weapons, the ones in Belarus? I don’t think so.

Tarabashka · 24/06/2023 15:49
Cnn Reaction GIF

This feeling than you come to mom's forum to research how they choose strollers and find out a lot of info on what is going on in your country :-D

Igotjelly · 24/06/2023 15:56

There’s a great irony that Moscow might fall in a lightening strike by 20k men when they failed so miserably to do the same to Kyiv with a full army.

whatausername · 24/06/2023 19:24

StormShadow · 24/06/2023 07:37

It might be more complicated than that. Once it became clear that Russia were not in fact going to take Kyiv in 3 days, the best outcome for China was Russia weakened but still stable. What Beijing does not like is instability in states it has a border with.

Russia is a massive place, of course, and what's happening at the moment is a continent away from China, but I'm not sure they'll be thrilled about warring militias. They'd prefer this to be suppressed quickly.

I completely agree. Putin looks weaker because of this and China will be perfectly happy about that. Yes, it has been resolved quickly (I think anyone could realise Prigozhin would not win). But Putin looks weak.

I did wonder if Prigozhin's actions would trigger the ousting of Putin by another party due to disconent/weakness/poor decision making. So far that does not seem to be the case.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread