Why are marriage proposals still a thing?

[SleepingMurder]

I don't get it one bit. DH and I discussed getting married, then started planning for it together, as we would with any major life decision. You wouldn't leave the timing of a major life decision or even whether it was going to happen to just one person in the relationship, why would it be any different when it comes to marriage? And yet I see so many posts about is he going to propose, when is he going to propose - and this is often after living together and having children! Surely there's no need to be coy about it? Why would you leave such a major decision that affects both people equally completely in the hands of one person (in 99% of cases, the male in a heterosexual relationship)?

Help me understand, wise folks of MN.

I think many posters aren't disagreeing with a proposal itself per se, more it's then typically the woman waiting around for the man to do the proposal, and until that point the marriage isn't happening. Why does the man get to decide when a couple are engaged, and when the couple are also going to get married.

@SaxSick it's a bit alarming that you genuinely seem to think that none of us have heard the "aaaahh but it's not your name it's your dad's name" 'argument' [sic] before. I mean, actually a bit scary.

I refer you to the maxim about playing chess with pigeons

@EvelynKatie i get it. But I don’t know a single woman/couple who have had the idea of marriage as a surprise or a total surprise proposal. The idea of marriage is discussed before, both parties on the same page. And then the proposal happens.

I think anyone just ‘waiting around’ for a proposal would need to discuss with their partner if marriage is something they both want etc/the sort of time they’d like to marry.

also, a man doesn’t get to decide. Women can propose! I know it doesn’t happen very often, but it can. But I think most women want to be proposed to still.

'The idea of marriage is discussed before, both parties on the same page. And then the proposal happens.'

But why the proposal? Discussion, agreement, both on the same page - great. Surely you just crack on with setting a date and making plans. It's the coy performance of the 'proposing' part that I can't bear. It frames the whole situation as his decision even if the couple have already discussed it like equal adults

Yes it's been covered that most people say they discussed marriage already and are on the same page. But it's usually then not a case of OK, when, let's set a date, start organising. I'd say then the majority of the time it's then has to wait around for the man to propose before they then plan the wedding. Which is then when we see posts on here too, where marriage is discussed but a year or 2 on they're still waiting for that proposal. It's the man having the power to choose when that marriage happens.

As I said, the woman can propose. But most women want to be proposed to, so chose to leave it in the hands of a man.

Exactly. So that's the discussion. Why is it left in the hands of a man? If I'm entering into a legal commitment with my partner as equals, why is it up to the man to decide when that happens?
Why don't women propose? Why is it usually expected the man has to do this 'grand romantic proposal?'
Personally, after me and DP discussed marriage, I wouldn't then say OK but it'll be when I've proposed mind! Then just leave him hanging about until I 'surprise' him.

I find truly offensive the maxim that a boy's/man's name comes under his ownership from birth, but that girls'/women's is only on loan to them from a man.

It's absurd, and it also happens to be untrue. Evidently in some quarters the phrase 'real family name' has caused gratuitous offence.

Plenty of women challenge the baseless tradition of throwing off her whole identity as part of the bargain of marriage. There are numerous threads in which some women have responded that they didn't even think about it, because 'it's just what you do', but had they given more thought to it at the time or married at a later stage in life, they'd probably have caught twice.

In many cultures it simply doesn't happen.

Another objection is frequently 'but your husband's name is your LEGAL name!' It's astonishing the number of people who either apparently believe this, or like to put other women in what they see as their place by pretending to believe it.

It is, of course, cobblers. Your name is your name unless you actively change it.

'thought' twice, my apologies, not 'caught' twice!

I find truly offensive the maxim that a boy's/man's name comes under his ownership from birth, but that girls'/women's is only on loan to them from a man.

I think it's so stupid that it's funny.

You're obviously correct, but unfortunately, as this thread shows, there are still people who think this is a meaningful argument.

@Tex81
That man's daughter will always be his little girl until he dies. Giving her away is one of the greatest gifts in the world. The husband used to have to earn the gift.

... no. I'm not an object to be earned or given away, and neither is my daughter.

Bah, just let them be. Not hurting anyone. People seem genuinely happy when they're proposed to so who cares

Not all couples discuss marriage in advance of a proposal, nor do most women hang on for years hoping that their DP will one day get round to it.
DD and her boyfriend went on holiday from Scotland to New York. She had no idea he was going to propose. He had worked out her likely ring size by scaling down his own finger measurement and chosen a beautiful diamond, then took her on an early morning jog round Central Park, stopping her on the bridge over the lake, in the midst of the autumn colours, and went down on one knee. A passing tourist filmed it on her phone from across the lake and ran over to give them the footage.
DD will remember that moment forever, it was very special.

I've read so many threads on here with women who are desperately unhappy because they are waiting for a proposal. It does hurt people - specifically, women.

My dad didn't give me to my husband. Neither of them own or owned me.

Yes, as is the argument that “I hated my father/wanted the whole family to have the same last name/wanted the same last name as my kids”. It’s telling how few men change their last names for the same reasons.

Yeah, I think that's where the big problem occurs. Otherwise yes, it is a patriarchal tradition but it's one that can be observed without causing any particular issue in itself for the couple involved.

But for men who want to mess women around, dangling the societal custom of a big proposal in their partner's face can be a useful tool. If she dares to bring up the topic of marriage, she's spoiling what he had planned. It's a mechanism for a man who isn't remotely traditional when it comes to sex, cohabitation and perhaps children outside marriage to all of a sudden get old school when it suits him, to the woman's detriment.

Yes - or take instant offence on behalf of a man (who couldn't care less) for being so 'disrespectful' as not to take his name. I've heard several variations on this theme.

Some interesting points about conservative values. Wearing white is just a fashion. Before Victoria most women wore blue as a symbol of (presumably sexual) 'purity'. It's the veil that's still worn as a symbol of modesty and purity. As a matter of personal taste, I really dislike these, especially the ones that shroud the face, but owing to their connotations would never wear one in any case. And 'giving away' does imply possession, the handing over of a woman like a chattel from father to husband. Again, if that's what people want, fair play. Doesn't affect me (but inwardly, it does make me wince).

As far as I'm concerned other women can revel in 'tradition' as much as they want. If your OH proposes, or if you propose to them, congratulations, have a very happy life. If you want to hang around waiting for him to propose instead of openly stating how you want your lives to be run, on your head be it.
What does grate is when people persistently try to foist those values on me. Have the courtesy to use my correct title - if you persist in using meaningless titles - and stop addressing me by a name I've never used. (Yes, I've found this to be a persistent problem. In 2023, can you imagine)?

In a similar vein, the view that a wholesale 'breakdown of society' boils down to a shift in the Woman = SAHP; Men = WOHP dynamic is almost naively reductive. Try Thatcherism and an insistent, navel-gazing focus on 'identity politics' to start with, rather than blaming women for daring to assert even the smallest moves toward equality.

'Strong women' - as this breed happens to have been mentioned - conduct their relationships as equal, autonomous adults. You can keep your conservative values if you want them. I don't - and I don't want them imposed on me by others. A return of 'tradition' or socially conservative values 'for everyone' would mean a return to the discourses which have controlled and restricted women's opportunities for generations.

Why on earth would every woman want that?