Why are marriage proposals still a thing?

[SleepingMurder]

I don't get it one bit. DH and I discussed getting married, then started planning for it together, as we would with any major life decision. You wouldn't leave the timing of a major life decision or even whether it was going to happen to just one person in the relationship, why would it be any different when it comes to marriage? And yet I see so many posts about is he going to propose, when is he going to propose - and this is often after living together and having children! Surely there's no need to be coy about it? Why would you leave such a major decision that affects both people equally completely in the hands of one person (in 99% of cases, the male in a heterosexual relationship)?

Help me understand, wise folks of MN.

But, but, but.. patriarchy!!

Just kidding. It sounds like you're both very happy ❤️

I mean, I won’t go into why on Earth a woman would live in a man’s home and have kids with him before marriage…

I never understand why women (& some men) say they like the 'traditional aspect of a proposal' but seem to be happy enough to live together and have a child (or two) without being married ... that's hardly 'traditional' is it?

Well in my case I had a child from a previous domestic abusive relationship, one which I left when my child was a baby. I entered my relationship already with a child!

Life isn’t black and white and you’re very judgemental.

I agree OP. We just planned when we wanted to marry and told people. Neither of us wears a ring either. We have been married 10 years but it was never about the proposal, dress or ring.

I don't think something like this is mystifying at all. It's pretty obvious that people conduct their relationships in different ways.

I tend to read these threads when people claim to 'want to understand' and declaring themselves absolutely baffled why people do something differently to them, as simply being a little bit judgey. There are myriad reasons why people deliver, reject, avoid and await proposals of marriage. There are often vast cultural landscapes to navigate, aside from anything else.

I don't actually disagree with your point per se, OP, but the faux bafflement is a touch grating.

Yep. Always strike me as "I'm really judgy about a topic and I'm going to use this platform to tell everyone why I think they're all wrong... but I'll pretend to be totally baffled" 😄

I agree.

Threads like these are very frequently and it’s always the same….people coming in to judge those who like romantic proposals, rings, dresses and nice wedding etc.

And it’s always so passive aggressive and dripping in smugness.

Most people can see straight through then though.

I don’t know, I mean people can be a bit sneery about proposals but then still have a full on wedding, I personally think weddings are generally a massive waste of money and a stressful or boring day for all depending on your place in it, so if anything I’d rather have the proposal 🤣

The stereotype always seems that it is women that want to get married, and men who need more convincing, so maybe the undertone is that if you wait for a man to propose, that’s a better sign that he actually wants to get married?

Because proposals are romantic and fun, they make a lovely memory, it’s something to show your friends and family. If you are on the same page regarding your relationship, why not?
But not in public, or at someone else’s wedding!

So glad others have pointed this out.

If something that boils down to “people like different things than you do” causes this much confusion and sheer bafflement, daily life must be a rely struggle as I assume they can’t even grasp the simplest of things, if this is causing an issue.

I don't think it's necessarily 'sneery' if you comment on something you don't understand or 'get' ... it's genuinely interesting in a mild sort of way ... I have a number of interests and activities that other people find baffling yet I don't think they are 'sneering at me' .. except for one friend who actually said 'I could never be friends with someone who went to church' ... I have been to church most Sundays all my adult life yet she had no idea!

Regarding proposals ... I have never been told the details of anyone's proposal so don't think everyone wants to share.

Critiquing sexist and misogynist traditions and asking why women would want to perpetuate them, perhaps getting some women to think a bit more about the implications of it, isn't "smug", "sneery", "passive aggressive", "simpering", or any of the other many unpleasant words that people have been using.

Feminism isn't a bad thing, and questioning and challenging traditions that set women up as passive, subordinate objects isn't wrong.

Agree there are some real fun suckers here and then it moves on to being told that it's misogynistic. Dear God - some of these people must lead a really miserable life.

It is misogynistic. And assessing things from a feminist perspective doesn't make someone miserable,smug, simpering, passive aggressive, sneery etc.

It's interesting how angry, insulting and defensive a lot of people get when these traditions are questioned, even mildly.

Hear hear.

I must admit, it's not an attitude I encounter at all in RL, and I'm a bit taken aback at how prevalent the The Proposal attitude is on Mn, and the defensiveness it provokes when anyone suggests it's deeply reactionary and misogynistic. Then again, virtually no one of my big and varied friendship groups in several countries changed their name on marriage, and everyone's children have both parents' surnames as a matter of course (as do about two thirds of DS's class at school), so I'm always taken aback by people still trotting out the whole 'It's not your name, it's your father's name, so there's no feminist choice' thing.

It's interesting how angry, insulting and defensive a lot of people get when these traditions are questioned, even mildly.

I couldn’t be less interested.

Agreed that the tedium of how others make decisions on their future life relationships isn't a particularly interesting topic of discussion.

Where it does become worthy of comment is on the ten-a-penny threads of MN from women wailing that 'he doesn't want to marry me?' and 'will he propose?' (I don't know, I haven't got a crystal ball), or who have willingly given up their lives and careers to have kids without a thought for their own security and wellbeing, and have later discovered they've happily relinquished it and will then have no recourse if it all goes belly-up.

That's the attitude that does baffle me, and yes, admittedly I do agree the idea of 'waiting for a proposal' is pretty nauseating. This is an important legal covenant and means of ordering your affairs - not just hearts and roses - and to cede that over to one party in the relationship is to hand on far too much power. Women are not helpless, passive children waiting to be told what to do. If you want to make a decision about your life, make it. ASK for what you want. At least then you can be reasonably sure of whether or not you're likely to get it, and to make decisions about your own life accordingly.

Of all the patriarchal 'traditions' - of which I've rejected all but the rings of which DH also wears one - it's the continued reference in 2023 to a 'maiden' name which jars the most.

Ugh. Just ugh.

I take issue with this.

I'm a feminist. I have had my years as an activist feminist. I spend a good deal of time debating and talking about misogyny and sexism.

Both myself and several other posters did not like the faux-confused narrative the OP chose to take. It was NOT about what you said. It was the wide-eyed "why do you women do this?" that I didn't like. It's reductive and - in my view - disingenuous.

Turning the valid points of other posters into their failure to 'get' feminism is equally reductive.

Apart from the last line of the op, which I agree was a bit disingenuous, the rest of it reads very reasonably to me.

I haven't read many or any responses which have really even tried to get to grips with the valid questions about why women perpetuate and support misogynist traditions that frame us as second-class citizens, or property to be handed around between men.

Instead I've read a hell of a lot of personal attacks saying that people who do question these traditions are smug, sneery, simpering, miserable, fun-suckers, joyless and many more.

The vitriol seems to be coming mostly in that direction. Because people don't want to say, outright, "I'm not interested in feminism or equality, it's more important to me to have the culturally sanctioned proof of male approval."

I've heard women I know talk with fear about being "left on the shelf" in their 20s. I've seen women I know so desperate to prove their married status that they've updated their social media name on their wedding day. In real life, it's pretty much impossible to challenge people on this stuff without falling out with them, so I think online is the right place to talk about it. And I think it's inherently good to take a step back and try to think, honestly, about why we do things.

Great post. Totally with you on "maiden name". Bleurgh. It's my NAME.

Well my proposal came out of the blue on day 3 of meeting now hubby and 28 days later we got married and now have 4 kids and on our 4th year lol.But rings etc we picked together. What I will never understand is long years of engagement why bother its supposed to lead to marriage and the amount I know in my friends got divorced very quickly once they did actually get round to marriage

I must admit, it's not an attitude I encounter at all in RL, and I'm a bit taken aback at how prevalent the The Proposal attitude is on Mn, and the defensiveness it provokes when anyone suggests it's deeply reactionary and misogynistic

It certainly seems to provoke belittling of an alternative point of view by labelling disagreement as “defensiveness”.

'In real life, it's pretty much impossible to challenge people on this stuff without falling out with them, so I think online is the right place to talk about it. And I think it's inherently good to take a step back and try to think, honestly, about why we do things.'

Well said. It's good to give issues like this some thought, instead of reducing feminism to 'choice' and dismissing all further discussion

Smug
Sneery
Passive aggressive
Lead miserable lives
Joyless
Simpering
Fun-sucking

Those are just a few examples from this thread of words describing those who question the 'romantic proposal' scenario.

That isn't 'disagreement'. Those aren't valid points making an argument. They're just personal attacks, trying to do a character assassination on the person giving the point of view, not in any way addressing the point.

And it certainly does suggest defensiveness and anger.