Why are marriage proposals still a thing?

[SleepingMurder]

I don't get it one bit. DH and I discussed getting married, then started planning for it together, as we would with any major life decision. You wouldn't leave the timing of a major life decision or even whether it was going to happen to just one person in the relationship, why would it be any different when it comes to marriage? And yet I see so many posts about is he going to propose, when is he going to propose - and this is often after living together and having children! Surely there's no need to be coy about it? Why would you leave such a major decision that affects both people equally completely in the hands of one person (in 99% of cases, the male in a heterosexual relationship)?

Help me understand, wise folks of MN.

I wouldn't have wanted to marry someone who didn't want me enough to do a proper proposal.

I'm of an age now where I'm highly unlikely to ever marry.

I made the right call but occasionally I do think 'what if?'

'And yes, waiting for/ wanting a man to propose to you, taking his name, being 'given away', wearing a white dress and veil, calling yourself 'Mrs' etc. are all fundamentally anti-feminist choices. It is OK to call them out as such.'

Absolutely right. It doesn't mean you cant make those choices, no one is going to stop you, but don't kid yourself that any of it is remotely feminist, because it just isnt. I don't think there is anything feminist about wearing make up either, but I wear a full face most days

For the most part you seem convinced your choices are right. That's enough. Despite what women here will tell you, marriage isn't the be all and end all.

As for 'wanting you enough', it depends how you see someone as demonstrating this. To me, it would be a partner who genuinely sees parenting as a two-person job, my career as being just as important as theirs, and who split household tasks evenly. Not one who just paid lip service to that, and as soon as kids came along left all the WifeWork to me to pick up. That's a scenario I've often seen play out on MN, at least. Those women post in despair, but despite their frustration seem willing to put up with that for the sake of being married. I wouldn't.

We pull together, and in situations where one of us is ill, or has a pressing deadline, etc, the other picks up the slack. We don't have to be asked, we just do it.

If my DH had gone down on one knee, I'd have laughed! Thankfully he knows me too well for that.

Of course it is when it doesn't bend to your views.

Of course you would.

I think what's mainly coming over here, if we cut through some of the angst in the thread, is that the proposals are less the issue than the passive notion of a woman 'waiting' for a man to make that decision for them both. OP's comment about leaving such a major decision in the hands of one party are bang to rights. If some women unquestionably accept a patriarchal tradition that's detrimental to their own legal rights and protection, then exploring the reasons for that acceptance is all well and good

I think that's a good way of putting it.

And the tradition aspect, the glorification of a proposal, is something that men who want to piss women around are able to utilise. There've been so many threads on here from women whose DPs are clearly stringing them along and who are made to feel they've ruined the proposal plans if they dare raise the issue of marriage several years and multiple kids in. It's used to keep them in their places.

Agree and that was the point I was making earlier. Women may be feminists but may not adhere to all principles. A woman may be a feminist but still like a proposal or wear make up. Is it 100% or nothing? Some of the posts on here do feminists a disservice as they tend to portray a very regulated conformist view of feminism.

and you don't get "angry, insulting and defensive"?

eg Embarrassing, narcissistic, sexist, outdated bullshit

'Some of the posts on here do feminists a disservice as they tend to portray a very regulated conformist view of feminism.'

Or reduce it all to 'choice' 🙄

I've tried to 'bend' no one to my views. I've merely expressed them.

You, on the other hand, have only attempted to respond by consistently trying to browbeat me. You found you were unsuccessful because I don't justify myself to inquisitive strangers on the internet.

If that offends you to the extent that you now try to misrepresent the tone of that discussion, that's your issue. I really couldn't care less.

I'm glad I'm not the only one frustrated by this. The twentieth-century feminists, suffragists, 1920s 'woman citizen' campaigners, the 'wages for housework' campaign who fought against the women citizen advocates, the fight for equality in the workplace and against the marriage bar, the second-wave radicals, the 'take back the night' protestors, the fourth-wavers who refused to stay silent any longer about the perpetual abuse they had suffered from men, had one key aim in common, no matter how much the individual schools were sometimes in conflict.

They fought for a level playing field, an end to social and systemic discrimination on the basis of their sex. They protested long and loud about our abuse at the hands of men, and asked them to stop raping and killing us. It was a fight to the death for some of these people. The stakes were huge.

'Choice' is small-fry by comparison. Women can way up the options (still more limited than men's) on offer to them and make whatever choices they make, sometimes directly thanks to the sacrifices made by those earlier feminists, like every time we enter a polling booth.

The protestation that 'feminism is about choice' is simply wrong. It denigrates those efforts. Equally frustrating is the protestation that 'women should support other women and build each other up'. Why? I don't owe those who share my chromosomes 'support' for their choices (especially when those choices still play into the antiquated patriarchal 'traditions' still used to oppress us) and I need no one's validation for mine. It's a ludicrously infantilizing attitude that's never demanded of men.

Interesting, too, that some of the people most stridently opposed to equality for women (cf. the anti-suffragists) are other women.

It's like doing the pick me dance without another contender to be picked. Just you getting picked or rejected.

'The protestation that 'feminism is about choice' is simply wrong. It denigrates those efforts. Equally frustrating is the protestation that 'women should support other women and build each other up'. Why? I don't owe those who share my chromosomes 'support' for their choices (especially when those choices still play into the antiquated patriarchal 'traditions' still used to oppress us) and I need no one's validation for mine. It's a ludicrously infantilizing attitude that's never demanded of men.'

Spot on and very well said

Its a personal thing & there is no right or wrong a answer.
After 10 years together mines.popped the question in march while we sat on the sofa in our jammies eating fruit.
Was.unexpected. 3rd relationship for both . Now in our 50's & we know we were going to be together till we pop our clogs. A ring wasn't changing that.
I wanted people to know I belonged to him. Not owned by, but belonging with each other. He didn't believe in marriage.
So it was a lovely wonderful surprise & so perfectly special as he made this change of view cause he loves me.
But whether we actually get married I don't really care.
It might take another 10 years or never happen.
If its your thing do it. If its not is doesn't matter. Each to their own.

That's not what I said. I didn't say you were trying to bend anyone. Read what I said and not what you think I said.

I said that your narrative of carrying your family name as opposed to taking your husband's name ( which you brought up) - assume father's name as you won't say - is part and parcel of the patriarch and you didn't like it - probably because it has just dawned on you. Did I say it offends me? Not at all . I find it quite amusing actually as you try to misinterpret the tone of the discussion. Quite simply I asked you a question about what you were saying and you can't answer because it doesn't fit in with your version of feminism.

I mean, I don't understand how you can decide whether a partner loves you or not by deciding whether they propose or not! They could think the same if you didn't do a 'proper proposal' to them?
How would you feel if your partner disagreed with 'proper proposals' and said, I love you and we want to be married, why should it be up to me to decide when that happens when we're in this together as equals?

That's a good point. I've got friends who have received the 'romantic proposal' and then constantly moan about their partner's not doing anywhere near their fair share of housework and bringing up children.
I'm very happy to have a partner who sees us as equals, does their fair share, and seemed almost relieved when we started discussing marriage that I absolutely did not want to be "proposed" to, and that we'd decide together when we will get married.

Funnily enough I've "found the right person" and it makes absolutely zero sense that it's purely up to him to decide when we get married by way of a proposal. 'When the girl gets asked she gets to feel special' just sounds so ridiculous. It wouldn't make me feel 'special' at all.

'Funnily enough I've "found the right person" and it makes absolutely zero sense that it's purely up to him to decide when we get married by way of a proposal. 'When the girlgets asked she gets to feel special' just sounds so ridiculous. It wouldn't make me feel 'special' at all'

💯 same. I haven't been a girl for about 30 years

But why is it a 'tradition'? Ask yourself. Why would having your own agency taken away from you by a patriarchal 'tradition' that presupposes female passivity, and dates from a time when women had no social, civil and economic power, be 'something to look forward to'? Why would participating in a gendered performance that dates from a time when women's only power was one of a possible choice of marital prospects make 'a girl' feel 'special'? Why is 'being chosen' rather than 'choosing' special?

'Girls' shouldn't be marrying at all, obviously.

And I'm another who 'found the right person'. It still didn't make me turn into a 'girl' who went along with blatantly misogynistic practices.

Your dogged pursual of me is nothing if not tenacious. It also long ago crossed the line into extreme tedium and is now derailing the thread.

I’ve made it clear as politely as I can that I’m not interested in capitulating to your demands or engaging with your version of what only loosely passes for ‘debate’. Other posters’ contributions on both sides of the discussion are far more thought-provoking and interesting.

Now, be a good egg and get off my leg, eh?

Thank you @AsphaltGirl. You've posted some interesting points, albeit we are not sparring partners as we seem very much on the same page here!

I tend to have no real view on these points unless asked directly: the SAHM vs. WOHM threads are particularly onerous and combative. But there ARE scenarios in which certain very rigid traditions are detrimental to women's interests. You've raised important points that it's beneficial to unpick these.

I don't personally care how other women structure their working vs. domestic lives, or what name they call themselves by. Those threads are a treadmill to nowhere. But the imposition of non-existent names and titles on me, the constant attempts to put women who dare to deviate from 'tradition' back in their boxes as upthread, have admittedly been a constant well of surprises.

I could say 'only on Mumsnet!' except it demonstrably isn't.

We live to fight another day! 💪😀

discuss marriage before proposal.

not everyone wants/has a proposal and that’s fine but some of the judgement on here about people that do want a proposal is insane.

when I got proposed to, it was nothing to do with Instagram/Disney. It was just a lovely moment between my dp and I that I will remember for the rest of my life. And it meant so much to our families. It brought joy to us and people in our lives.

why can’t everyone just do what they want?

Always the line used by people who are unable respond to a point. I accept that you cannot answer this in a way that aligns with your previous posts. The end.