Clemmie Hooper Facing Midwifery Misconduct Hearing

[Nedmund]

I've not yet seen any other threads on this.

It's not yet clear why there's a heating but it would be interesting to read the decision by the Nursing and Midwifery Council when it's posted online. The hearing ends 8th March.

I'm wondering if the racism she trolled with played out in her work?

Ditto 🤔

You're most welcome to ask mn to check where I'm posting from - though troll hunting on the thread is discouraged. Unless ch is on another obscure holiday, we couldn't possibly be the same person.

I just don't think white women - or any written women- should be excluded from a debate about the cancellation of a skilled professional on the basis that they're not the right colour so couldn't possibly be invoked. We're all involved No tribunal will support your position because it's absurd. They'll have a hearing. They will make recommendations. They will not strike her off because they have a sense of proportion, - something sorely lacking on this thread.

😬

but I don't think the NHS or any healthcare provider should just accept 'it is what it is' because that really is just saying that deaths of ethnic minorities in labour do not matter

No it isn't. Have a sense of proportion. You have not a shred of evidence that black women have been given unprofessional care by ch. I'm not convinced she meant a word of what she said as she seemed to be trashing everyone randomly based on what the most ignorant daily mail reader would say in an effort to assist appear just like a troll. Not that it's acceptable but possibly not a reflection of her genuine views and this is corroborated by other staff. To dismiss the idea that very serious hesitation and thought should be given before throwing out a skilled midwife with no track record of mistakes at work is tantamount to saying that women in general don't matter. Because we need midwives. Women are dying and labouring alone. I personally have less respect for you because this doesn't weigh heavily with you. It is highly significant and anyone with power will treat it as such. I also have little regard for your decision that ch would not benefit from any awareness training so we won't bother with that either. People can certainly change after a fall from grace and I suspect ch won't be the same again.

I understand perfectly that there is more to it than treating everyone the same, believe me. The point that seems to have gone over your head is that she's clearly raising no alarm bells in her treatment of women on the ward - if there was a reason to be concerned, this is the kind of comment that you wouldn't be seeing. Have some common sense about the import of her colleagues' comments because it should be somewhat reassuring in that these attitudes have not been registered by peers in the workplace. I know at this point you don't want to be reassured but the tribunal will quite rightly care.

As for link - go find it, it's right there in the only article I read about this.

@Everyonesinvited yes we wouldn’t want to cause any distress to CH’s white patients, never mind the black patients who would be very ill at ease to have her as their midwife after the comments she made

I also have little regard for your decision that ch would not benefit from any awareness training so we won't bother with that either.

How can you suggest that she said this due to a lack of education when she said it about a woman who she literally about the issue in question, after said interview?

She accused her of having 'played the race card' in the interview itself. The interview about the issue you say she could do with training on.

If the equivalent of training via a first hand account from someone who actively campaigns about the issue, who she did an in depth interview, wasn't enough to educate her then why would other training be helpful?

What she said was racist because it suggested that a black woman lied about the treatment of black women, despite both first hand accounts and statistics supporting those anecdotal accounts.

It wasn't ignorant. She had been educated. It was racist. Suggesting it wasn't, or suggesting she just needs 'training' / educating, is minimising to a depressing degree. And dismissive of black women's experience.

She accused her of having 'played the race card' in the interview itself.

To be clear, when I say the above I mean she said afterwards (under her tattle account) that she had 'played the race card'. She didn't say so during the actual interview, obviously.

I'm not convinced she meant it. She was playing a part she shouldn't have played. Disciplining is appropriate yes, but drawing a straight line to extrapolation into her work as a competent midwife.... More evidence of these attitudes on the job would be necessary to make assumptions that she is putting black women at risk. No such evidence has yet come to light but it may, you never know.

One conversation isn't much to base it all on anyway, when the professional stakes are high and no patients are stepping forward to complain about her.

I doubt they'd be aware, any more than patients were aware of the private attitudes of the obstetrician in This is really going to hurt.

Trigger warning re baby loss.

I have a friend who lost her baby soon after birth - she is black - and who was blamed by the midwives on duty for her babies sudden collapse. It was subsequently found out that there had been serious neglect when she was giving birth.
I also have another black friend who died giving birth to her son. She had complained of feeling unwell and the midwife didn’t take her seriously. More or less told her not to make a fuss.

Both these women were let down appallingly.
Clemmie Hooper may have been playing a role - but she had that racist language ready to use. She didn’t think it crossed a line. She is a racist - because whatever role she was playing it was of a big old racist.
She didn’t have to go that route. She could have played any role. But because she is a racist she picked that one.

I hope she is thrown out of the profession. Because my friend who lost her baby thinks every day it was her fault. Those indifferent, racist midwives shouldn’t be allowed near women of any colour but especially women of colour.

@Sunnysunbun I am so, so sorry for those losses

Colleagues can’t attest to “she treats everyone the same”. Bollocks. Only this Clemmie person knows if she does, which is very doubtful.
She should no longer be a midwife, or not be allowed to treat poc patients. Or be made to declare her racist views, and poc patients given the choice. Of course that won’t happen, so she should go.

We’ve heard many times how bad outcomes can be for poc in labour, and how much should be done to rectify the situation. Surely removing a racist midwife would help?

Anyone trying to excuse her racism is complicit ime. People are usually hiding their own racist attitudes

I really can't see how she is going to lose her job though as she has been allowed to practice for the past three years, so if she loses her job based on it being unsafe for her to be around BAME patients, surely the trust is opening itself up to be sued by anyone from a non-white background who had a less than ideal experience - which would be most people giving birth in an NHS hospital these days, black or white.

The issue wouldn’t be that she’s not safe to practice. It would be that reputational damage to midwifery.

I don’t think she will be struck off though.

Crikey, Clemmie's body language speaks volume doesn't it. She's actively leaning away from Candice and her right arm is folded defensively across her body. She's not even smiling.

I'm sure she won't have her PIN removed, but what she said was upsetting and even under an anon name she must have felt emboldened that it was fine to say; even worse that it was about someone who had taken the time to appear on her podcast. It just shows that most of the podcasts and posts about 5 x more etc are indeed performative. I'd feel uncomfortable having her as my midwife.

It's immaterial whether Clemmie's colleagues attest she treats every patient equally. Midwives spend an awful lot of time just one on one with their patients. Her colleagues won't have a clue how Clemmie conducts herself during those times. Clemmie told everyone on Tattle that she is casually racist. When someone tells you who they are it's really best to listen.

I think it's (at best) hugely unhelpful to turn this into a black women vs white women issue EveryonesInvited. It's pretty appalling to say that white women will lose out if CH is removed from her post, and if they don't have a problem with it then there is no problem.

In what other area of medical practice would that be acceptable? Doctors who sexually assault women should be allowed to continue to practice because they have successfully treated a large number of men without violating their boundaries?

Clemmie Hooper demonstrated (again, at best) a woeful lack of judgement in creating a sock account. In addition, what she said on that account was horribly racist. Each of those things are huge red flags for her ability to do her job to the required standard. Both of them together are particularly dangerous and could very well have catastrophic consequences for her patients.

I would be extremely shocked (to say the absolute least) if the panel hand down anything other than a verbal finger-wagging as a reminder not to do it again and a warning to others to keep their opinions to themselves. If they do impose any other sanction up to and including striking off, they are inviting thousands of complaints about other healthcare professionals and, as a PP said, potential action against her Trust. They just wouldn't dare to open those floodgates, that can of worms. As I said upthread, if every HCP who said or did something 'a bit racist' was struck off, the healthcare system would collapse. And that's fucking depressing, scary, and fucked up, isn't it? We know there is an endemic, lethal racism crisis in healthcare (this is fact, not opinion), and society in general. How do we tackle it?

The grim truth is, the sort of language she used is so casual, so everyday, that people are bending over backwards to justify, dismiss, minimise and ignore the wider issues because they honestly dont see there's that much of a problem there.

This case I think could set a precedent for future HCP hearings, which is one reason I'm following it, despite not having much of an opinion either way on the particular individual it's about.

you’re taking the absolute piss now. firstly it’s been on the news, why wouldn’t they be aware? You’re aware; why wouldn’t other women be? also are you REALLY saying it’s ok to hold racist views as long as you don’t air them to your patients?! as if that won’t influence how the patient is treated by the racist person?! nah you’re on the wind up now. Or at least I hope you are.
you said in another reply you don’t believe CH actually meant to be racist. as if that’s ok, as if I could walk down the street shouting racial slurs but then say ‘oh I didn’t mean it!’.

YOU are outing yourself as a racism apologist and frankly it’s embarrassing. I have to wonder at your motives and the beliefs you hold about black women. Unbelievable

@Everyonesinvited I think one of the reasons for the inclusion of professionals with obnoxious views is to highlight that these people exist - they walk and work amongst us - and to invite our concern, derision and contempt. The message isn't that we should shrug and move on.

I doubt she'd try that twice, especially in a site where MN can easily check.

No, the uncomfortable truth is that I don't agree with you and think your attitudes to women's welfare and proportionate retribution are unmeasured, toxic and deeply damaging.

Reported for troll hunting.

I'm none of the above.

Ch may be big news in your bubble but I doubt the average young mum in Wigan or wherever she practices has any idea. She's not a household name and I doubt she's recognized often on the street. I'd certainly not heard of her. Perhaps she will be more now after recent news ironically but that will be temporary.

You're thinking in terms of how much she should suffer from the starting point that no racism is acceptable and any cessation of suffering or permission for CH to practice midwifery is a sign that some people do find racism acceptable. That's just nuts. No one will look at it that way outside your bubble. They will look for evidence that CH is actively subjecting vulnerable patients to racist treatment. That doesn't mean they think racism on any level is fine - they are quite rightly focusing on whether she can do her job and whether the original racist comment is likely to recur. There is no such evidence that CH is likely to reoffend. It is relevant to question how far these really were her views in the first place because that indicates how likely we are to see it happening again. It is relevant to look at her work and see if there is any sign there that she holds and practices out of these attitudes. None has been reported - the only evidence so far is the initial offense which seems to have been an isolated attempt to disguise her own identity, rather than an entrenched view of her own.

None of this is remotely apologism for racism. It is a pragmatic assessment of the extent to which ch may pose a risk to some women in the here and now, balanced against the clear benefits to women of having an experienced and dedicated midwife in the NHS. There is plenty to reassure but the bias is towards condemnation despite the fallout for mothers.

Some frothing posters have been irrational enough to conflate issues in a way that make me thankful they're not in a position of power - as if her husband referencing their daughter's diabetes on his personal account, or the inclusion of her picture there, has any bearing whatsoever on CH's remorse over her conduct. One doesn't have to be CH to be taken aback at the sheer scale of catty condemnation on this thread.