What is going on with MN?

[AdamRyan]

I used to find it a very refreshing and supportive place to discuss the absolute crap that women put up with in all areas of life. It helped me recognise and start questioning abusive behaviours by mu ex. I think its invaluable to women from that perspective.
Over the past few months though, it appears to have changed

• posts about men "needing" sex when their partner isn't up for it and saying women will only have themselves to blame if their partner has an affair because they aren't getting enough sex
• posts suggesting aggression is a reasonable response to not enough sex
• endless endless "women do it too"/"NAMALT"/"not my nigel" on any thread about male violence
• posters calling women stupid/illogical/rude for questioning the above
• and now loads of sponsored threads about sex toys/"reigniting intimacy" when you've just given birth.

I'm starting to feel the whole tone of the site is becoming very patriarchal, which I never felt before. And it's making me sad. I want a space where I don't have to put mens penis wants first. Aaaaargh.

But it probably is for me, that’s the point! I would love to engage and learn even more and have a voice. There is room in the GC debate for more a spectrum, not just the extremes at either end which is what is happening there currently.

Yes, ChilliBandit. And those of us who appreciate and post on FWR will look at some of the posts on this thread accusing feminists of siding with right-wingers, and will know who's posting them.

It's on a par with:
Do you love dogs? Are you vegetarian? Hitler loved dogs and he was a vegetarian, therefore you're a Nazi.

Yes exactly, I don’t want to hide FWR, the fight is important and I get a lot from reading it. I would describe myself as hard GC! I just don’t post much because I don’t want to be accused of trolling for not agreeing with certain aspects of the movement.

And those of us who appreciate and post on FWR will look at some of the posts on this thread accusing feminists of siding with right-wingers, and will know who's posting them.

Oh you think it's a conspiracy? Please, do enlighten.

And this is exactly the kind of coded language I’m talking about.

”We know who you really are”.

I mean, come on.

I think it’s a shame as posters sound pretty legit and it’s only really TRAs that purposely target the site that are not worth bothering with

I don’t find unequivocal statements re not being able to change sex or a right to single sex space extreme, pretty much my two basic things

But others may disagree, probably best in the actual topic though

@pattihews - you have sadly just proved my point. You realise what you are saying is on par with people who preemptively block anyone who follows JKR on Twitter as they must be a TERF right? The FWR boards leave no room for any sort of discussion. You are probably doing more harm than good in some respects with the insular and somewhat paranoid attitude.

As someone that has lurked for probably 12 years and only really posted in the last couple due to the FWR board, join in anyway.

Not everyone has to agree and yes you probably will get snarky posts, but why not ignore them? I don't agree with everyone and scroll over quite a few but it's invaluable.
If someone comes in and says TWAW and you're all bigots, they're obviously not going to get a warm welcome.
If someone comes in and accuses everyone of being far right because they agree with a conservative on this issue and nothing else, they're not going to get a warm welcome either.
You're allowed your opinions, and others are allowed to challenge them. That's the best thing about it. Why take it personally?
Also, there are several bad-faith posters on there that name-change repeatedly and post varying amounts of wide-eyed faux innocence and manage to derail threads all the time. That's why it can seem quite harsh when you get stuck into some threads as I'm sure you've seen when you read there.

I love MN for the FWR boards and kind of forget that everyone on the site doesn’t visit it. Meanwhile the site has grown and the demographic has changed. I’ve got a thread running in AIBU at the moment and it’s like Sexism Bingo. It’s been an eye opener for sure. I guess we aren’t as far along as I thought we were.

@CaponeOnTax - I feel like we are regressing rather than not being further along. Probably due to the continual campaigning of MRAs and TRAs making these views more acceptable again.

I've already said I agree with your unequivocal statements. Like I said, this isn't about the core philosophy of GC. It's about the much more complex culture war and the many ways people can approach the activism.

You say come along and be logical and articulate. I'd like to think my posts in this thread are both those things, but no-one is engaging with my arguments, they are resorting to straw men. And then someone comes along from FWR and proves the exact point I'm making - referring to those who post a lot on FWR (i.e inner circle) knowing who we really are.

It's ridiculous, paranoid and who can be fagged with it?

A powerful post and worth repeating. I don't post much on the feminist boards but I have been learning a lot from them and appreciate them. There are so few spaces now where women can speak out.

I think it is when I've had a read. Perhaps some of us don't want to participate.

I'm concerned about the increasing unapologetic fascist and racist posts.

Android phone + Firefox browser + ublock origin extension = no sex toy adverts.

Definitely changed. I’ve been here for many years and the posters were reassuring and witty. I genuinely did laugh out loud at some of the stories and responses. I had good honest advice when I first had babies.
Now there are just so many posters finding the angle to tell you you’ve done something wrong or even downright bullying, revelling in telling the op how bad they are in 100s of different ways. So unforgiving, small minded and tedious. I’m mainly here out of habit still.

If you agree with those statements I might be missing what you’re experiencing. Not to say it’s not happening.

But no I don’t think you are anyone other than someone who wants to join in the debate.

I generally try to simplify to those two things as some of it is a bit too tangly for me.

I do agree with pp though there are so few places on the internet allowing this and actually impacting politics even - it’s pretty good. Anyway I get sometimes it’s not worth it, I feel like that with specific posters so have stopped. But you are welcome anyway if you can be bothered.

I never ever ever make posts on here as the nasty "advice" would be too upsetting. Incredibly vile and judgmental people on here when posters are going through really tough times and just need some love and support.

I've noticed it too OP. Often you see the same posters popping up on numerous relationship threads to minimise/justify/victim blame in relation to the most appalling behaviour. Nothing obnoxious enough to get them banned, but a lot of gaslighting and reverse victim and offender going on.

What I would say is Mumsnet is one of the few chat sites (I would say globally) that doesn't over-regulate/censor discussions of women's rights. It's increasingly known for that and I don't thinks it's coincidental that we now seem to have a real uptick in the number of posters with a keep-your-man-happy-at-all-costs agenda.

Do you really think all the discussion on FWR is just people agreeing with those statements?

What I (and others) are experiencing happened on this very thread. We state that we find some people on FWR hostile and paranoid, and someone comes along and uses coded language to imply we're TRA sock puppets.

It didn't used to be like that. I understand that many posters are weary and wary, but it's descending into hostility. Pretend it isn't if you want. Pretend it's all in our heads, or we're all TRAs who spend most of our time on MN discussing DIY and diets. Makes perfect sense.

I said they were the two things I brought it back to. When accusations are flying or arguments it helps me to remember they are not extreme statements.

I also said that it doesn’t mean it’s not happening to you. How have you reacted as you have? I haven’t dismissed your claims just said I don’t experience them.

You can take a different approach as you like. Join in or not just trying to be welcoming, probably bad who knows.

Oh man i was literally just thinking this. I see they've also got sponsored content on bottle feeding which they used to not advertise on principle - the principle being that breastfeeding is hard enough to sustain at the beginning without the Nestle and the like using their bottomless pockets to tell women to give up.

I remember when MN backed out of something because a company was an arms manufacturer. Cannot imagine that happening now.

I agree lead
I think that the trolling and extreme views/insulting is causing regular posters to be suspicious and overly defensive if you express a different view.

It's symptomatic of the wider issue on the site. It used to be easier to have a curious exchange of views on controversial topics than it is now, I'm sure.

Yes, I didn't mean specifically you @TheLeadbetterLife , more in general. I don't think anyone needs to carefully insinuate their way in, just be aware that there is greater alertness and sensitivity to organised disrupters on FWR threads.

I agree that you are articulate and if you are expressing yourself well with logical points, there shouldn't be any suspicions. I also agree that there is much to be gained by just reading and FWR has many lurkers who come out now and again to post support on the occasional thread before going back to just reading again.

But did you not see it happen merely a page ago? Do you think it was reasonable for an FWR regular to accuse people who are posting in good faith of having some sinister, sock puppet, TRA agenda?

That kind of shit happens all the time on FWR. It's not welcoming. It used to be, it's not now.

The feminism boards are terrifying and educational in equal measure. It's so unexpected- shocking- to see women discussing things without softening their delivery or denigrating themselves. If you are wrong, you are told about it, with never a "but don't worry dear we all make mistakes, I'm sure you'll be right next time, don't be cross with me for pointing it out and of course you may well be right after all, perhaps I made a mistake, shall we ask a man?!".

Once you get over the change in tone, it's fascinating.

So informative. Prescient. Wise. Take your pick.