'But women do that too...'

[workistoomuch]

Discussing the Epsom college case with DH and I said 'how can a man to do that' and dh went mental saying women do that too and that I should say person and I'm associating him with it. I am unbelievably angry at him because it is a man who did that. What is wrong with saying that?!

I pointed out even if I had said human that associates him as he is a human. I could have said mammal, I could have said brown eyed person, but I said man and he's flipped out. He won't respond to my question about being human.

I don't understand how he can't see how ridiculous he's being and that he sounds like some kind of mens rights activist 😓

What he must do to escape contemporary censure is declare that men are to blame. For if he doesn't his wife will become incredibly angry.

To use a MN saying I haven't seen much recently, are you on glue?

Mrs P, sadly your colonising white person example is a very poor analogy.

You have added the qualifying adjective: colonising. It is rather as if the OP has asked why do so many suicidal men kill their wives before they kill themselves. I don't imagine her Husband would have reacted angrily to that question. There is no insulting implication in it.

We know that colonisers invade, slaughter and enslave. That is what colonisers do. We disapprove of colonisation. If your analogy is a good one, we would have to disapprove of men.

But most men don't murder their wives and children. It isn't what men do.

Furthermore I don't imagine you really identify as a colonising person and I don't imagine being a coloniser is important to you. But the OP's husband will identify as a man and I'm sure as much as he loathes men who kill their wives and children I imagine he doesn't disapprove of men generally. Being a man and being proud of being man will be important to him.

You mock white people objecting to be called colonisers, you argue that it would be absurd for them to whine that not all white people are colonisers. Really?

Some white people like the present Ukrainians are resisting colonisation. I imagine a Ukrainian, whether fighting on the front line or sitting in his apartment waiting to be bombed, would react angrily if you called him or her a coloniser. Rather like a good man would if it was implied he could murder his wife and child.

How incredibly arrogant. No, we don't agree. Your small-minded, hyperbolic, misrepresenting NAMALT bullshit isn't even close to anything I think.

Why are people like you so afraid of recognising that this sort of act is a majority male behaviour without dressing it up as 'men must be blamed!' straw men and misrepresentations? Why not engage in honest debate about what people have actually said, rather than what you'd like them to have said to fit your argument?

What's in it for you in trying to distract from the unassailable fact that we have a societal issue that, based on some literature, seems to be growing, and it's a society that needs to accept and do something about the fact that, while (yawn) NAMALT, the perpetrators of violent behaviours, whether against men or women, are overwhelmingly male? It's isn't 'men-blaming' to point out those facts, it's shining a light on a problem that doesn't seem to be going away, and there is a stark choice between distraction and action. The Not All Men crowd are indulging in the former. I wonder why that is - I honestly do.

And yes, I do question why any person's reaction to 'how can a man do that' is to draw focus onto women and broaden it to more than specifically men who do these things. In her question, OP was not suggesting that all men are to blame, or shoulder responsibility. The converse, to me it sounds she was expressing bewilderment, shock and rage that any man could do such a thing. Because most men don't.

But of the people who do, it's mostly men. That's probably something we should think about. Or maybe even do something about, as a society.

So yes, please do fuck off with telling me that we agree. I know myself. Don't presume to speak for me, or appropriate for your own cause what I think or say. Presumptuous is often a mask. What's behind your mask, I wonder?

But most men don't murder their wives and children. It isn't what men do.

It's what some men do. The people who do it are small in number, but they're mostly men.

The people who are violent towards women are mostly men.

The people who are violent towards men are mostly men.

The violence by some men is a societal problem. It affects men, women and children. Something is causing this problem. I really don't understand the resistance to acknowledging this, and starting to tackle it on a societal level.

Just read MrsTP's analogy and it's an excellent one, in a way Humph44 has just unwittingly explicated.

Mumsnet really is a gift sometimes.

Doesn’t forgive killing an innocent child???? But the DV does excuse killing Emma ? Is that actually what you’re saying?

Hmm. Who is more likely to be abusive here?

The person with the guns, physically stronger, who reported being slapped 6 years ago but told police "it was nothing" and then shot 2 of their family dead?

Or....

The physically weaker person, with 1 unproven complaint of having slapped stronger person 6 years ago, who called their family in distress to ask for help, and then was shot dead?

It's a tricky one....

Ffs

Exactly. There are only two victims in this awful story and neither are George.

Haven’t read the whole thread but OP maybe this would be helpful to give your husband some perspective
Womens Aid - Domestic abuse is a gendered crime

“Whilst both men and women may experience incidents of inter-personal violence and abuse, women are considerably more likely to experience repeated and severe forms of abuse, including sexual violence. They are also more likely to have experienced sustained physical, psychological or emotional abuse, or violence which results in injury or death.
^^
….The majority of domestic homicide victims (killed by ex/partner or a family member) for the year ending March 2017 to the year ending March 2019 were female (77% or 274 victims) and most of the suspects were male (263 out of 274; 96%). Of the 83 male victims of domestic homicide, the suspect was female in 39 cases, and male in 44 cases. (ONS, 2020A)”

For me one of the most upsetting parts of DA stats is that the vast majority of murders do not make headlines because it’s so frequent that most aren’t even newsworthy. We only hear about the ‘extreme’ cases. This is not ok. These victims need to be given a voice.

Over the three-year period April 2016 to March 2019, a total of 222 women were killed by a partner or ex-partner. The majority of suspects were male (218, 98%). This means that during this time period, an average of three women every fortnight were murdered by their male partner or ex-partner. (ONS, 2020B)

You might like the works of Judith Butler.

She tosses a bunch of words in a salad, mixes them up tin diversionary dressing and ends up writing bollocks as well.

Jassy, yet again we agree. I do agree that most violence is perpetrated by men. I also agree with you that it is a very serious problem. Those points are so self-evident, so blindingly obvious. What sentient person would think otherwise? But the debate does need to develop from there. It can't be the start and finish of the conversation.

We also agree that not all men are to blame for male violence. You explain in your post at 1.09 that the OP was not saying that. So again we agree - all men are not to blame for male violence. I am pleased you make that important point so succinctly. All men are not to blame. I agree with you on that.

What we do not agree on are the tactics of how to tackle the serious problem. I think we want men on our side and you seem determined (to me at least) to make men the enemy.

I am sorry that it annoys you that we agree on so much. I am sorry that you think me arrogant. You say that I am not speaking for you. I am not. You make statements and I happen to agree with many of them. When I don't agree with you I try and explain why. I accept I haven't changed your mind, but you have helped me think more about this important issue so I am glad we have had this exchange of views.

Anyway you will be pleased to know I will now fuck off as you earlier requested me to do. I've said my bit. I'm going back to lurking.

I think we'll all be grateful for that, given your lack of facility with nuance and your inability to participate in the debate you say is so important rather than hyperbolising to distract from important issues and trying to constantly derail into Not All Men territory, and literally inventing things ('you seem determined to make men the enemy' - you have literally zero evidence for that statement) rather than actually engage on the issue of what to do about the problem of male violence.

Interesting, as ever, the threads people decide to register delurk to post on as their nearly sole contributions to Mumsnet.

What we do not agree on are the tactics of how to tackle the serious problem. I think we want men on our side and you seem determined (to me at least) to make men the enemy.

So your point is - Why would men do anything about the murderous number in their ranks, when some women are so mean and hurt their feelings by pointing out male violence.

Great display of logic and empathy there. Well done.

How do men get onside? The vast majority of men are in denial - it might be carbon monoxide, they said, when we all knew damn well the basics of what had happened. Then its, let wait till we know the facts/women kill too/not all men, blah blah, blah..... Even the ones who superficially take an interest want to sit back and see what happens despite the sheer weight of evidence of male pattern dv/vawg/femicide that suggests that ALL men need to get on and do something.

And this is why she added the qualifier. She could have just said ‘British white’. Or Spanish or French or Portuguese.

I suggest you give this article to your husband, written by a man whose sister and nephew were murdered by the sister’s husband. www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/27/frank-mullane-how-the-of-his-sister-and-nephew-changed-his-life-and-purpose

Oh god, that poor family 😕
Agree, all men should read that article