'But women do that too...'

[workistoomuch]

Discussing the Epsom college case with DH and I said 'how can a man to do that' and dh went mental saying women do that too and that I should say person and I'm associating him with it. I am unbelievably angry at him because it is a man who did that. What is wrong with saying that?!

I pointed out even if I had said human that associates him as he is a human. I could have said mammal, I could have said brown eyed person, but I said man and he's flipped out. He won't respond to my question about being human.

I don't understand how he can't see how ridiculous he's being and that he sounds like some kind of mens rights activist 😓

Well, and more recent high profile cases of child neglect, abuse and eventually homicide. Often involving both parents or one parent and a step parent figure.

It’s not easy for men that stand up for women. Dh does. Means he is not “one of the lads” at work. He’s kept out of senior management (though he is paid more than them as they need him as he’s excellent).

Yep, its the way he doesn't want me to label this person as a man that threw me. He IS a man. I didn't even say it in the context of 'men do this sort of thing more than women' it really was just 'how could a man do that?'

Still disgusted at his attitude 😒

I'm surprised at the women on here, who are surprised that men get defensive, or don't care about male violence

I don't know how to say it more clearly,
Men benefit from the way the world currently is.
It suits them.
They have no desire to change.
People in power have no desire to change.

You can point out to men all the terrible things that women go through, and they will not care. Because they enjoy being in power.

It has been the same with any group that has had power in history. They do not care that the group they have power over is suffering. Because they (the group in power) are having fun.

When white people were very racist to black people in the slave era, some people tried to talk to them about the slaves suffering.

The white people did not care in the slightest as they saw the black people as sub human. And the white people benefited from the system.

I remember I read an interesting article once. It was written by a current black actor. He was talking about sexism. He said that it is comparable to racism.

He said that women will be talking to men about their suffering, but the men can't really see it because they don't see women as "all the way human". He said there is a disconnect. He said when you don't see women as "all the way human" you dismiss their suffering as not important.

He said a woman would be talking to him about her pain and he would be thinking "but you're not all the way human you are sub human"

I'm surprised at the women on here, who are surprised that men get defensive, or don't care about male violence

The ones who say things like 'well, I asked dh and he said 'men are shits, I totally empathise with women, I wish I wasn't even male anymore'' are in complete denial. Your husband is probably saying what he knows you want to hear.

I’m with you OP. I have no sympathy with men who are more concerned about their feelings than taking a cold hard look at the facts so that we can try to come up with solutions to address the attitudes to women that is behind these crimes. It’s utterly self absorbed.

I have no time for women who are so terrified of whatever they think the reputational consequences are for them of acknowledging the reality that violence is overwhelmingly a male problem that they have to say, ‘women do it too!’

Could you give an example of a post where someone has said something like that on this thread?

No one is saying make victims don’t matter ffs. We are saying that when we are talking about male violence there is no need for people to keep derailing the conversation with ‘ women too! Women too!’

We have to be able to accurately name and analyze phenomena to come up with effective solutions. Pretending violence is a ‘human problem’ rather than looking at the distinctive patterns in rates, behaviours and motivations in violence by the sex of the perpetrator, is not being ‘more nuanced’; it’s a gaslighting move motivated by a political stance rather than the actual evidence base.

However you try to explain this, it’s predominantly something males are responsible for. Get real.

I agree with this. I remember being out at the pub with my then BF in my early 20s, at the pub with him and his group of male mates. About half a dozen of them. I had long hair and a drunk guy, in a mixed sex group behind me, kept stroking my hair. I repeatedly told him to stop, but he carried on. Not my BF or any of his mates, said anything to this guy. None of the men in his own group did. Eventually one of the women in his group persuaded him to stop.

Men don’t call out this shit IME. I don’t think women even expect them to anymore. I’d certainly look to a woman for support in such a situation rather than a man.

Could you give an example of a post where someone has said something like that on this thread?

Have a look yourself 🙄 not just at this thread but similar ones too. 👍

I personally know a woman who murdered one of her children, tried to kill the other and attempted suicide herself. It's just happened again in the US with a very high profile case of a woman killing her children and attempting suicide. Both horribly tragic and obviously related to severe issues with mental health, but it does happen.

You're the one making the claim so you must have a specific post or posts in mind. Otherwise it's trivially easy to dismiss what you're claiming as unsupported.

@musingsinmidlife would you be happy to write the same paragraphs you added above, replacing 'women/woman' with the term 'black person/ people' and the term 'men/man' with 'white person/ people'? If not, why not? I suspect if not, it's because you know you'd rightly get your ass handed to you on a plate.

As you might imagine, I don't agree at all. It's not appropriate to always look at the specifics of individual cases rather than looking for trends and patterns. Otherwise, how would we ever identify or tackle systemic injustice or wrongdoing?

You don't have to 'frantically google' to find cases of violent women. I've literally just read an article about a 15yo girl being viciously attacked by a group of girls. Many women abuse their children and other women. None of that means that male violence isn't more prevalent or that women are not more at risk than men but as I've said, it's disingenuous to pretend that violent women are practically unheard of.

No one says women never kill, but the ratio is about 95% - 5%.

When women kill their children its usually as a result post post partum psychosis, which isn't managed very well in the US and thats why they have more cases of women killing children.
In the UK we have a system of midwives, health visitors, and specialist mother and baby psychiatric units, which gives better outcomes for women who are ill.

There have been a couple of posts saying “always a man”, which is factually incorrect.

no one sensible is disputing the massive disparity, but hyperbole on either side doesn’t help. It’s not all men, it’s not always a man, it is usually a man. It is a massive problem.

Why is it when dealing with male violence we need to justify it?

So not "always a man" but "in almost all examples, a man" is the appropriate, respectful, nice phrase that will mean that the nice men aren't enraged and upset at women for mentioning the issue of male violence?

no one sensible is disputing the massive disparity, but hyperbole on either side doesn’t help. It’s not all men, it’s not always a man, it is usually a man. It is a massive problem.

I think when 95% of the time it's one set of people, saying 'always' isn't hyperbole. Certainly is less hyperbolic than pretending it's equal

I think what happens is ancient women like me have spent 40 years seeing that we ask over and over again for equality while men ask for inequality, what you get is inequality. Which is why my feminism doesn't ask for 'equality' it asks for 'freedom from oppression and an end to the patriarchy'. If we ask for equality we get more of the same (and sometimes worse) because half the population isn't pulling in the same direction. We, and the good men, need to ask for a complete change.

Equality, if you look at its purest form would mean no abortion care (men don't need them), no acceptance of BFing (men don't do it), no maternity leave, and so on. If you make a world that works for men, equality is shit for women.

This is an excellent and thoughtful post.

I don't like "but woman do that too".

However I was discussing this with colleagues at lunchtime and one said she had hit him in 2016 and the police were called.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64573739

So currently I'm waiting for the full report to decide what the actual behind the scenes relationship was like. It maybe she was a victim and retaliated or vice versa.

Statistically it'll be the man but there are always those cases which aren't as clear cut.

This may be one.

It's pretty classic for men who abuse women to report the contrary so that the woman can't get help or feels she won't get to have the child.

Of course this is a ploy and it's a gift to MRAs who pretend it's all equal. If my DH hit me, I could easily die. He might be a bit hurt. And I've done martial arts.

No one should hit anyone. That's true. But again, pretending it's equal is silly.

You are actually saying “maybe she was a victim and retaliated or maybe vice versa?”

She slapped him, he shot his wife and child dead and you’re considering maybe he was her victim and he retaliated??? Fuck me I despair

I have to quote this one again. I just can’t comprehend that this poor woman who died at the hands of her husband along with her lovely daughter, is perhaps “to blame” as she may have abused her poor husband who finally snapped under the strain.

and all because he called the police on her. Which I fully expect he did to control her and let her know he could destroy her career and her life at any point he wanted to. God I really wish that police incident hadn’t been reported. As soon as I read that I just knew that people would consider that maybe she was the abuser.
what on earth do men have to do in order for women to not get the blame??