'But women do that too...'

[workistoomuch]

Discussing the Epsom college case with DH and I said 'how can a man to do that' and dh went mental saying women do that too and that I should say person and I'm associating him with it. I am unbelievably angry at him because it is a man who did that. What is wrong with saying that?!

I pointed out even if I had said human that associates him as he is a human. I could have said mammal, I could have said brown eyed person, but I said man and he's flipped out. He won't respond to my question about being human.

I don't understand how he can't see how ridiculous he's being and that he sounds like some kind of mens rights activist 😓

Ever since the #metoo movement, there are a lot of men who have become incredibly defensive. Uncomfortable with women wanting to call out male violence and harassment. We need to simmer down and know our place.

I would be furious if my DH reacted like that.

I’m not sure the defensiveness is because of that. I think it’s a fear of being blamed for the actions of other men, of being lumped in with the shit ones.

@FloydPepper do you know how petulant and petty it comes across to say that, oh we would be "allies" but you're just all too berating and blaming for us? If only you'd ask a bit nicer, or just not talk so much about it, then we'd be interested in sorting it out.... except, that hasn't happened so far, so why would it happen if women just asked a bit more kindly and nicely??

There's a great graphic to show from (I think) the Independent with the proportions.

I thought there would be value in giving my thoughts on why so many men seem to be defensive rather than supportive. How they might be feeling.

So, @FloydPepper, how can women raise this issue in a way that doesn't enrage the nice men, or alienate them immediately from engaging with the issue? What's the right way to pitch these things, if at all?

I wish I knew. I think the recent campaigns on getting men to call out their mates are a good start, and seem to be pitched right. They’re stressing “we’re not saying you’re all as bad, but you can help”.

Zero tolerance in schools?

Honestly if the so called good men get defensive when a woman talks about male violence against women, then I'm sorry but I don't think they are as nice as they would like you to think.
I know a fair few men who I can talk about this with and they don't get defensive because they know I'm not talking about them. The ones who do get defensive will tell you at every opportunity they are good men, but you know they aren't.

For me the frustration is two-fold. Forty years of being nice about it and nothing changed. I'm fucking done being nice and trying to fit it into men's heads while being fragrant and kind. AND we're all the 'in' group in some way. I'm white and I think All Lives Matters types are probably racists and I don't defend them. How come NAMALT is so different?

DD's school is full of boys taking up space, and attention and their needs being prioritised. They already feel entitled and expect to be able to say and do sexist things. Another generation being raised in this way. It's so depressing.

It's mostly men, though.

I take the point (although I'd admit to being surprised if male prisons had a majority of female staff). For me, I think it's a (set of) cultural issues, take schools for example, you are absolutely right that for primary education male role models are basically absent. In mixed secondary education, it is almost reversed. The same is true in volunteering, as a man, it's way easier to volunteer to work with teenagers, as I currently do than it was to volunteer to work with small kids.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect an overwhelming majority of parents here would be much happier with a female babysitter than a male. I'd expect the same to a lesser extent about reception/year1 teachers. This is, absolutely, partly risk - but I think it also speaks to a deep society-wide cultural view of women as for example "nurturers" and caring men as inherently risky and 'unnatural'.

I feel that this has become worse over the years, rather than better, I'm a GenXer and I find the idea of an Andrew Tate in the 1980s simply unimaginable. We obviously had horribly misogynistic men then, but even then the idea that explicitly, rather than implicitly, exploiting women was a desirable and profitable goal was crazy.

Somewhere along the line the conversation seems to have become one where equality is not a common goal, but at least for some a cultural divide - I might compare racial equality at this point as well. It is hard for those in privileged positions (sex, wealth, age, race, attractiveness, ability) to even see the privilege, let alone engage with it, and we seem for good reasons to have decided that the struggle is only for those on the wrong end of the power relationship.

P.S. it's now a quarter past midnight, I hope this isn't as incoherent in the a.m. as I fear it might be.

I think you have some points here about prejudices but sometimes I wonder if they're assumed a rather than real, and therefore are self-perpetuating?

My kids' (two boys£ nursery made a point of having at least one male staff member in every room - they said it was actually something that become a big draw for prospective parents. Similar in primary school - parents clamour for the small number of male teachers, peripatetic teachers and TAs. They were devastated when the only male teacher left.

Our regular babysitters now are men who looked after them when they were in nursery. I felt so lucky that we've been able to find these role models for them from the earliest age that embed the idea that men do all kinds of caring and teaching jobs.

I agree with you on the trajectory and the strength of the divide, it's so fucking depressing.

It's guilt that makes them defensive. And having a light shone on that guilt. Obviously, I don't mean men who get defensive are all rapists and murderers. But they are almost certainly guilty of some form of negative behaviour towards women which they believe they are entitled to engage in unchallenged.
Low level harassment in bars, sexism at work, invading personal space, manspreading on the train, dismissing women's opinions and ideas, men's jobs and hobbies being more important than those of their wives, pornography and strip clubs because women are a form of entertainment and, let's not forget, good old fashioned "banter".

They might not be the shittest ones by far, but they are still shit and part of the problem. Male entitlement over women.

Exactly this! Sadly Australia was not far behind that number last year, mid sixties iirc. Devastating.

And even that story contains male violence against the accused.

I know of one woman local to me who did it.

However when the Epsom College one appeared in the news the other day, everyone I know was unanimous in saying I bet it was the husband. Because we all know that despite a couple of rare exceptions, it's nearly always the man.

This is interesting because I had a very heated discussion with my OH over the footballer Benjamin Mendy who was recently cleared of 6 charges of rape. OH was insistent that he was not guilty because he had been cleared of the charges, I had to point out very clearly and firmly that rape charges / sexual assault charges are very low in this country and that is not an indicator that he is not guilty. In 2021 there were 67125 rape offences in the UK and only 1557 prosecutions - says it all really.

Women do it too and not all men are essentially two cheeks of the same arse.

My friends sister was murdered by her husband who then stabbed his son and strangled his daughter. It barely made local news at the time. Sadly the bastard did not kill himself and is now serving a hefty sentence at his Majestys pleasure. So many lives destroyed in one Saturday afternoon by a controlling, jealous monster.

That case is terrible. I couldn’t believe he was cleared. My OH thinks the witness was paid off. Who knows. But six cases dropped?

Completely agree with this. I was talking to my partner about women’s football. We had both enjoyed the football last summer etc. He said it’s not as good as men’s. The standard is lower. I argued it’s a different game and shouldn't be compared. We had a very heated argument and now it’s another item on the list that we don’t talk about anymore. The sexism is always there - low level but never disappears.

Why on earth do people post 'women do it too' and a case of a violent woman they've frantically googled? For every one of those cases, we could reply with nine examples of men's violence - that's the whole point.

Noone is saying that women don't murder and aren't capable of it etc. You're saying that women are disproportionately murdered by men to the extent that there is clearly a problem of gender. In the same way that women are disproportionately abused by men than the other way around. There's also a higher rate of men making false allegations of abuse when they are perpetrators themselves. There's also a higher rate of women killing in self defence after a long history of being abused.

If he's good himself then he shouldn't worry about it applying to him because he should be recognising the issue and working to solve it.