'But women do that too...'

[workistoomuch]

Discussing the Epsom college case with DH and I said 'how can a man to do that' and dh went mental saying women do that too and that I should say person and I'm associating him with it. I am unbelievably angry at him because it is a man who did that. What is wrong with saying that?!

I pointed out even if I had said human that associates him as he is a human. I could have said mammal, I could have said brown eyed person, but I said man and he's flipped out. He won't respond to my question about being human.

I don't understand how he can't see how ridiculous he's being and that he sounds like some kind of mens rights activist 😓

Also males murdered by brothers, uncles and fathers in a domestic setting, in addition to male intimate partners.

From a lot of men that I have talked to: they have told me this

Men enjoy the power over women. They enjoy being the powerful gender. They enjoy having everything being easier for them.

So if the physically stronger gender are going to keep abusing hurting and killing the weaker gender, and they won't stop, what can actually stop it?

What realistically can stop it. I personally would like more gender segregated areas, but I know some other women would maybe think that is restrictive.

I would love to stay in a hotel that is a women only hotel for example. The amount of times I have stayed in hotels, where the male hotel staff made me feel really scared and walked into my hotel room without knocking was shocking

While I agree that men are overwhelmingly more likely to kill their partners/children there have been several cases recently here (not the UK) where women have killed their partners, one case locally where a woman lied about her partner and encouraged a relative to kill him. The only multiple killing in this area was a woman who killed her three little girls.

From the ONS:

In the year ending March 2021, female (homicide) victims were more commonly killed by a partner or ex-partner or a family member. For males the suspected killer was more commonly a friend or acquaintance, stranger or other known person.

Almost half (49%) of adult female homicide victims were killed in a domestic homicide (75). During COVID-19 lockdown periods covering 23 March to 3 July 2020, 5 November to 2 December 2020 and 5 January to 31 March 2021, this was 56%, highlighting the change in composition of homicides during the restrictions. Of the 75 female victims, 72 were killed by a male suspect.

Males were much less likely to be the victim of a domestic homicide, with only 10% (39) of male homicides being domestic related in the latest year, a similar proportion to the previous year.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2021#the-relationship-between-victims-and-suspects

Just to clarify, are you a man Floydpepper?

As it is very interesting to hear the male perspective .

Yes I am

I honestly haven't seen very much that implies all men are evil and innately capable of horrendous violence. I have however seen a lot of NAMALT and WDIT posturing.

Saying "not all men..." blah is effectively washing your hands of the issue and opting out of any part in bringing about change. In my opinion.

He sounds exactly like a men’s rights activist. I don’t honestly know how I could feel about him after saying something so ridiculous. There are equally terrible tales of women killing their children and themselves. However I too cannot recall any story of a woman killing her husband and children. It is weird he has taken it so seriously. Is there any history of suicide in his family?

Thanks very much for contributing to the thread. It's very interesting to hear how a man feels. We need both genders to talk together about this as we learn from each other

It really is uncommon.

Less than 50 children a year are killed (and most of them by male perpetrators). About 300 children a year die on the roads. Most people won't know any children who died in either of these ways, but those that do will be way more likely to know a road accident victim than a victim of a female caregiver. Children are mostly safe.

I watch far too many real life murder series on TV. A lot of the cases involving women involved a 3rd party who carried out the actual act at the behest of the woman.

That's not true. It's predominately but not always a man; and as other posters have said, it's very rare a woman kills her partner & children - in the rare incidences, it's the children and herself. This is partly due to physical incapacity, and partly due to the underlying reasons which are usually MH related and appear to be focused around fear of leaving their children behind, if they end their own lives.

Thank you. I feel so angry and frustrated with all of the shitty men out there, and I know that’s only a fraction of how most women feel.

I wish I knew how to stop them behaving as they do, but as I’ve said on other threads, me and men like me don’t have men like that as friends, we don’t know them, we can’t influence them. They surround themselves with men who think it’s all ok.

I think there’s a large proportion of men who feel a bit like me, but react to being accused of all being the same in a more aggressive way.

I know a woman who killed heralds and her child

@FloydPepper and @sussexman nice to hear from you

What I'd like to know from the nice men (not Nice Guys who are all awful) is why, if you see the issue, nice men don't change things. I've volunteered in male prisons, male shelters, male services and the vast vast majority of the staff and volunteers are women. Except the best paid, who is almost always a man.

Schools, early learning, boys' mentoring, we need good male role models. What we have are underpaid, under appreciated women.

But it is almost universally men who do the murder/suicide/kill their children thing.

I realise it is uncomfortable, but there it is.

We need change in society, not to avoid talking about it.

@FloydPepper it's not true you can't do anything, you can call out anything sexist (I find it incredible if your whole contact with men at work and socially never ever throws up sexism), think about unconscious bias, and also there are some brilliant programs, I know someone who developed one, for young men working with other young men to call out sexism and potential coercive control, it's fantastic. So, it is possible to be part of the solution, even if all you do is support programs like this and make sure your own work, for example, is fair in the way it treats women (my work thinks it is but isn't). Men and the ones they love are at risk from dangerous men and I think the sooner men start to work on this the better, women working on it doesn't have the same effect sadly (for the reason of misogyny in the first place).

It’s a fair question, and you have me challenging myself.

personally, I fear that I’d not be respected as a role model by the type of men/boys who are (or will become) problematic. I’m not strong, I’m not tall, I’m not cool, I’m not exciting. I’m a middle aged white accountant. I know this probably says more about me, but I fear they will only listen to and look up to men who they can identify with. I appreciate therein lies the issue…

I will look into mentoring. You’ve made me think

Your husband is being a dick

Just calmly point out that 98% violence is committed by males but that does not mean that 98% of men are violent.
We women have to be very careful to marry the non-violent ones. Reassure him that you are glad you chose him if you do feel safe.
Women killing their own children seem to do it as part of post-natal depression. It is much rarer though.

I genuinely very very rarely come across anything in my social circle, and my friends say the same (we’ve discussed this a few times recently). On the odd occasion I have seen something from a colleague or acquaintance I have objected. It may be the case that things are not shared or done in front of me because I will object, and I’m not sure what the answer is in that case.

I’m a middle aged white accountant.

The young man who locked me in a room when I was 15 and tried to sexually assault me is now a middle-aged successful white businessman. It's everywhere.

And I've been harassed on the street countless times and been asked if I was OK I think three times by other men. And it's groups and not one of the group tried to stop it. I've stepped in many more times that that when I've seen harassment. Men aren't pulling their collective weight as part of the solution. Women are.

That’s just One example. I bet I could find an example of a cow killing a man. But we don’t go around saying cows kill men.

Every week in the U.K. two women are killed by a man. Every week. That’s two a week. It’s about time people starting noticing this statistic.

I do get it. “we” need to do more. I’m asking how I can personally, but the large cohort of men who would be ally’s but are feeling berated and blamed are the ones we (both) somehow need to get to understand, and help.

On a slight tangent but similar, I teach teenagers PSHE. Whenever we discuss sexual assault / rape and get into the number of unreported, uncharged, unconvicted cases of it, without fail a boy in the class will pipe up with a case of a falsely accused man, or a woman who was found to be lying / admitted they made it up, as though that's somehow worse and therefore negates the rape statistics. They always want to dominate the discussion with some poor footballer who was falsely accused and prevent others, usually the girls from discussing the issue of rape and it's consequences. Of course we also do say that men can be attacked too but it's disingenuous to suggest it's an equal issue. It's like they really can't bear to hear the reality.