'But women do that too...'

[workistoomuch]

Discussing the Epsom college case with DH and I said 'how can a man to do that' and dh went mental saying women do that too and that I should say person and I'm associating him with it. I am unbelievably angry at him because it is a man who did that. What is wrong with saying that?!

I pointed out even if I had said human that associates him as he is a human. I could have said mammal, I could have said brown eyed person, but I said man and he's flipped out. He won't respond to my question about being human.

I don't understand how he can't see how ridiculous he's being and that he sounds like some kind of mens rights activist 😓

Reread and it makes me sicker than I thought. The only time you use the word victim in your post is about male victims of dv.
congrats. George is clearly the victim here, why didn’t I see that for myself??

The only definitely violent person was the father/husband. We know that he shot his daughter to death, and shot his wife dead before killing himself. In contrast we have one allegation of a slap, that had no follow up action. Nothing. But sure, it's all about male domestic violence victims and female perpetrators. No eye roll is big enough for that.

Completely agree and thanks for making sense in a thread that is baffling and upsetting.
seriously, what must a man do before it’s his fault and not his wife’s?? Because obviously killing his 7 year old daughter and wife is not enough

This seems a well researched study
equation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Who-does-what-to-Whom-Gender-and-domestic-violence-perpetrators.pdf

makes for interesting reading on gendered or more accurately sex based differences. I was interested in duel perpetrators bits as that seems to account for a lot of female arrests

the big takeaway is the number of incidents a single male perpetrates vs women perpetrators, and when women do commit dv they use weapons more for defence and are more likely to be arrested after a single offence.

We get angry when we are afraid. Its uncomfortable when your group's actions are highlighted.

Given that he is not allowed to answer not all men do that. What answer would you accept to your question.
Is the only acceptable answer that men are murderous?

What hyperbole. He could easily have said something like, "yes, how could anyone do that?". Or "yes, how could any parent do that to their child" or whatever.

No Roses, you need to think your answer through.
Saying how could anyone do that is the same as not all men do that which Mumsnet does not allow anyone to say.

It's really not. At all.

My husband said 'I agree, it's fucking horrific how some men view their families and what they're capable of doing to them.'

He has the logical capacity to recognise that yes, there is a male violence problem, that yes, women are more likely to be victims than perpetrators, and anyone pointing that out isn't actually directly attacking him.

Roses, of course a woman can say that, but If a man said that he would be minimising male violence.
Afterall it was unacceptable to say women do that too. There has to be a distinction between male and female behaviour. That is the whole point of the thread.

Given that's is a majority male behaviour, what's the possible motivation a man responding to the OP's statement by saying 'women do it too'?

Yep, @JassyRadlett, my DP said similar, as I think I previously mentioned, and we discussed the psychology behind these kind of family annihilators. And that it should be seen as an urgent priority to look at common factors in their upbringing to identify things that could be addressed in future. It wouldn't have occurred to him to be angry at me raising it, or mentioning that men are the very large majority perpetrators of this kind of crime.

Jassy, Im glad you agree with me and disagree with Roses who thought Mumsnet would be happy with an answer that didn't denigrate men.
The obvious point is the only acceptable answer OP's DH could give to her was that men are murderous.

Its absolutely male pattern violence. Occasionally women kill their children or their partners usually out of desperation/mental illness or as a result of abuse. Men usually kill for control. Men seriously need to get a grip of this situation.

🙄

Did you start one?

Did the woman you're talking about annihilate her family? Because that's what this MAN did. The overwhelming majority of family annihilators are MEN. He killed his own child. Did that woman do that? They are not remotely comparable. You look like a 🤡

Nope, don't agree with you even a tiny bit. As I said, and as plenty of others have said, there are plenty of answers that can be given that aren't your rather silly suggestion.

I think we do agree Jassy. We agree that the only acceptable answer to the O's original question is one criticising men, because as a wise person once said: "Given that's is a majority male behaviour, what's the possible motivation a man responding to the OP's statement by saying 'women do it too'?"

Men must be blamed and men must blame men and if they don't they are misogynists.

The OP wants to hear her husband denigrate men and it would be unacceptable if he tamely said not all men are like that. And it would also be unacceptable if he said some women can behave disgracefully too.

What he must do to escape contemporary censure is declare that men are to blame. For if he doesn't his wife will become incredibly angry.

So Jassy, You, I, the OP and much of Mumsnet agree that men must be blamed.
If you don't agree that men should be blamed for the dreadful murder of a woman and her child please speak up.

I’m so fed up with this and NAMALT

too many men is now the term I’m going to use because this is the real problem in our society

If there was a massacre of indigenous people in Central American and my Central American friend said, "look what colonising white people do" I would agree. Because, although it's fairly obvious I'm not involved, I understand history and class analysis.

I wouldn't whine NAWPALT. Because the point isn't to make sure everyone knows I wouldn't displace entire peoples, it's to bring attention to a massive issue.

Male violence is a massive issue.

Too many men.

Plus almost all women. Being victims that is. Even if you've never been harassed or groped or a hundred other things (from 11 years old in my case) you've probably felt that cold fear when a drunk bloke sits down next to you on a train. Or the 'oh shit' when the mini cab goes the wrong direction. Or the fear when you're alone at a bus stop at night with a weird bloke. Or some man is walking behind you at night.

I'd love to see what a night out would look like if all the men stayed home. At 18 it would have been awesome.

I doubt we’ll ever know but I think there was more to this than meets the eye. Previous signs of DV…did that ever stop behind closed doors. There’s such a stigma against male victims of DV. Doesn’t forgive killing an innocent child though. It’s tragic all round and I doubt we’ll know the cause because what goes on behind closed doors is seen by nobody but the family.

The logical extension of that utter guff is that the child didn't deserve it but the woman did.
Fuck. Off. With. That. Shit.
Apparently she slapped him in 2016. Amazingly enough the police turned up for that. While dismissing countless women making, sometimes multiple, reports of DV by their male partners.
Slow handclap

I agree MrsTP

but I also know some women that will go out they way and claim to have never felt this fear or question why this fear is felt yet at the same time have been only bullied by women 🙄

I think their are lying but of course they won’t admit to that

He was definitely being unreasonable getting angry about it. I wouldnt have said that though, i would have said how can someone do that.