'But women do that too...'

[workistoomuch]

Discussing the Epsom college case with DH and I said 'how can a man to do that' and dh went mental saying women do that too and that I should say person and I'm associating him with it. I am unbelievably angry at him because it is a man who did that. What is wrong with saying that?!

I pointed out even if I had said human that associates him as he is a human. I could have said mammal, I could have said brown eyed person, but I said man and he's flipped out. He won't respond to my question about being human.

I don't understand how he can't see how ridiculous he's being and that he sounds like some kind of mens rights activist 😓

Well done for finding a case of a woman committing violence 🤔 Over 90% of murders are committed by men. Fact.

I'm not arguing the stator sticks I'm just linking to a case when it was Said that women never do it and I'd just read the case 2 minutes prior

He was a man OP. It's a fact. For your OH to get defensive in this situation is more than a bit ridiculous. I'd be similarly as angry, that he said it and moreover he's sticking to it. He's not thought this one through, has he?

When we have an epidemic of male violence it is not helpful to come onto a thread linking a story of a woman who committed violence. Yes it happens but not nearly as much as it does with men and it’s this very fact that needs highlighting over and over again, not finding rare stories of women being violent

Most women that are killed, are killed by partners or relatives, and these are almost always men. (92% last year). A woman dies at the hand of a man about every 2 days. I suspect this is well-known here, and it is outrageous.

Men are killed at about twice the rate of women (daily in other words), and yes mostly by men - although this is probably boosted by the fact that men are much more likely to be killed by strangers or acquaintances. I suspect this is much less well-known. It is a least equally outrageous.

I guess what I'm tentatively saying from my (male) perspective is that absolutely there's a male violence problem, and its certainly primarily on us men to address it, but its a little less clear to me that it is a male violence against women issue as a male violence issue.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2021

p.s. I suspect most domestic murders will still be by partners though, so most male DV victims will have a female perpetrator.

Well, lots of women have killed their children.

I’ve actually stoped engaging with anyone whose go to is WDIT (women do it too). Because I’ve concluded that they’re just basically thick and not worth my intellectual input and time.

I was responding to this post

Ask him for some examples of murder/suicide committed by women. Murders of children by their angry mothers.

And I'd literally just read the article so I linked to it.

I can be very literal (I'm autistic) and I apologise

addressing the OP directly. "How can a man do that?" is a perfectly reasonable question. "Why are men much more likely to do that?" which I suspect is what was meant and was understood is also absolutely correct.

A woman is only as safe as her male partner permits.

There is no point in pretending that women commit violent crime as often as men do. But the murder of children by their mothers of female caregivers is not that uncommon.

@workistoomuch what I don't understand is why your husband is angry at you saying "man" instead of person. It's strange that it made him immediately angry and defensive. Instead he could just have replied, "yes, how could anyone do that?". Or "yes, how could any parent do that to their child" or whatever.

I talked about it with my DP and we both talked about the frequency of these male family annihilators and that we had both thought the same thing when hearing the incident being described by the police. We talked about the psychology of these men, and the dehumanising of the women and children who live with them. We talked about how and why these men end up like this, is it a predisposition or is it upbringing in a specific environment or a combination of both. No need to say WDIT, or NAMALT, or try to deny the statistics. Just a rational conversation about an awful, depressing incident.

Tragically in Ireland we have had two recent cases of women killing their children and women killing their partners. Killing of both I don't recall.

It happens but not as often. May they rest in peace

Get him to watch "murder in the family" on itv.

I can't think of a single case of a woman in the UK murdering their spouse/partner and children. Are there any cases?

The sad truth is that men are also also at most danger from men. The vast majority of violence against men is, guess what, by men. Violence is a male problem. If violent offending across the whole population was at the levels of women’s violence, we’d be living in some sort of utopia where violence is rare and prisons were empty. But we are not. Because men are violent.

Yes, my exH would also flip his lid if I said anything about male violence or examples of misogyny, as though I was attacking him personally or trying to score some kind of point. "Muh, women are just as bad!" Pathetic.

No you can't.

Actually go on I dare you. Find me a story of an abusive woman who murdered her husband in front of her child, then murdered her child.

I'll wait

Men are by far more likely to be a perpetrator of violence. No one can argue with that.

where I think care is needed is when that perfectly accurate point becomes aimed at all men and changes to become “look what you’ve done”. It can lead to a response that is more of a defensive “not me” rather than “yes a lot of men are awful and we need to change that”

there has been a change in tone on recent posts, where emotions are understably high, towards saying all men must be awful, we’re all responsible for this, anyone claiming not to be is a liar. I guess your husband has felt that tone across social media and reacted (badly) to it.

Everyone gets defensive. Especially if you are in the group of people that have caused the most hurt and pain. Which is white men.

People get defensive.

I'm white. If someone came up to me and said that white people have been the most racist people in all of history, I know it is is true, but my knee jerk response would be to get defensive.

I would want to say "not all white people ", and "I'm not racist"

It's very hard to hear that your race has been full of nasty people, without getting any way defensive about it. We all want to defend ourselves.

That is why men get defensive when it is pointed out to them that men do the most damage/hurt/killings/pain.

I can understand the defensiveness. It is a natural human reaction

As soon as I knew a gun was involved, I knew it would be the husband. Very few women in the UK own or are used to handling guns, and even in the US where it is more common, there are far more men who own guns than women. Guns allow you to kill more people- this example, the Plymouth incel shooter who shot his own mother before starting on strangers.

I don't see the justification at all of these people owning guns, especially given the male violence epidemic amongst us (see recent news headlines for so many examples). Absolutely not on school premises for starters.

Not saying all family annihilators use guns, but a lot do, some other methods, but they are majority men, ridiculous that women are so at risk from men and then have to pacify them about the statistics in their own homes.

Surely we can expect men to be capable of having that initial reaction of defensiveness and then having a moment's thought before actually reacting and expressing their defensiveness in angry or aggressive ways? Or is it too much to hope for?

@sussexman

I suspect most domestic murders will still be by partners though, so most male DV victims will have a female perpetrator.

Somebody else will have to find the stats on this. However, it's unlikely. There's a surprising number of make victims in same-sex relationships. As to cases of wives killing husbands, these often aren't classical domestic violence cases, but rather DV victims snapping after years of abuse. Ironically, this is also why the sentences tend to be more severe - for obvious reasons, very few women commit spur-of-the-moment manslaughter. Rather, they tend to wait for the victim to be incapacitated in some form, which gets them into premeditated murder territory.

p.s. I suspect most domestic murders will still be by partners though, so most male DV victims will have a female perpetrator.

A significant number of male victims will have a male partner.

This. Honestly it’s awful being part of the group that is responsible for this. It makes me angry at the shut men, embarrassed to be associated with them, fearful for my daughter and partner, and massively frustrated that there are so many violent, nasty men out there. I feel powerless.

i understand women feel a lot of that, and worse, and may naturally lash out at “men”. I also understand how a lot of men at that point will feel attacked, and jump to “not me”.