Pretty sure Paris Hilton wasn't pregnant ?

[bathtublove]

Another celeb surrogacy I'm presuming !

For the record, I believe Paris Hilton has had fertility issues for some years so I don't think this is a narrative recently constructed by Kathy Hilton.

@bathtublove you kind of missed my point.

Of course when someone is famous they have to accept that personal information may occasionally be "leaked" in the press.

But the general public has no right to "expect" to be privy to any and all personal information, especially if it's of a medical nature.

No it’s not rubbish.
your longing for a child categorically does not constitute a medical need.

there are lot of things people want and yearn for that impact their mental health. That doesn’t change the fact that your wanting to carry and give birth to a child of your own would never be deemed a medical need. At most if your attempts at becoming a mother were unsuccessful you would offered access to services such as counselling. You wouldn’t be set up with a surrogate who’d risk their own life to being a baby into the world for you.

Paris herself says she didn't have fertility problems. So it seems using a surrogate was in fact Plan A after all (surprise, surprise).

pagesix.com/2022/11/16/paris-hilton-refutes-mom-kathys-pregnancy-struggle-claim/amp/

i can see your point

however nhs ivf is limited by a number of criteria and is not unlimited cycles. I only personally think ivf should involve the transfer of biological embryos only. There are certain hoops to jumps through that have been legally and ethically approved by our law makers , professional bodies and so on.

the main difference still being of course that no other woman’s body health and life is being risked to grow that baby and give birth to it then being physically separated from that baby: one of the parts of surrogacy I find the most abhorrent

Well, she would say that, wouldn't she? The rumours about her alleged infertility causes weren't pleasant.

I cannot describe how angry this narrow minded opinion is. Do you have any idea how many babies, born of surrogates and nurtured and raised by other women and men, have grown into loved, well adjusted adults OVER GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS? Do you think surrogacy is new? Do you think that your and your babies’ experience of pregnancy and childbirth and infancy is exactly the same for every single human who has existed, as a pregnant woman or as a child?

Do you know how ridiculous you sound?

Here’s my (equally pointless) personal
opinion. Many, many shitty things happen to poor women, all around the world. Rent-a-womb is one of them. Not all surrogacies fall into this category, by any stretch.

Many shitty things happen to babies all around the world, and being brought up by parents who want you (because nobody has a baby by a surrogate when they don’t want a baby at all) may be one of them and it may not be. Just like being brought up by your biological parents may or may not be.

It’s plain stupid to have a blanket, absolute opinion on this. It’s not borne out by reality. Not worth wasting any more time
on.

But it IS our business that women, usually poor women, are being exploited!! Never mind the poor wee babies.

It's illegal to buy a kidney from someone. And that is a genuine medical need. Is that none of our business too?

What's the difference in buying a baby?

It's not about critiquing a woman who chooses to be a surrogate- more about pointing out how wrong it is for someone to pay a desperate or struggling woman to rent her womb and criticizing the people who think it's okay to create a baby to rip it from its birth mother. If a donor egg-created embryo is implanted in a surrogate mother, the ethical issues increase because now a child has a birth mother, a legal parent(s) and a genetic mother (who they often will never know).

And unlike adoption, which is about finding a family for a child who needs one, this is about creating and buying a child because you want one. Ethical adoption is child centered. Surrogacy and egg buying is not.

To the women who say these women will make wonderful mothers as they wanted the baby. They did to a degree, many are perfectly open about not wanting them enough to put their body through pregnancy though, or cannot commit 9 months to growing them. These women are coming from a mindset of me me me, I want, I get, at all costs. My feelings are more important than anyone else me me me me me. I don't know how that translates into becoming a caring, selfless mother.

Agree entirely. Who actively chooses to put a newborn baby through the trauma of separation from its birth mother? Not like adoption where that is the least bad option for an already in existence baby otherwise at risk - it’s choosing to create life with the sole intention for its first human experience to be trauma and suffering. It’s an inherently selfish decision and a clear cut statement that their own wants matter more than the suffering their child will be subjected to 😢

I’ve seen it said on here that it’s ok because ‘the baby won’t remember’. One of the most disgusting things I’ve seen said on MN.

This!!!!!

Out of interest, @TiddleyWink : how do you feel about abortion at 24 weeks?

Who said "these women" would make wonderful mothers as they wanted the baby? Not I.

Is being a "wonderful" mother a necessary qualification to being a mother? How about if you were able to conceive without problem? How about if you had a one night stand and just, eh, had the baby? How about if you're a mother in one of the many countries around the world that don't have paid maternity leave? Or if you only get 6 weeks of maternity leave because you're an underpaid entry-level worker in the USA? Or if you go back to work at 2 weeks because you own a business and have 250 staff members relying on you? Or you're a self-employed cleaner trying to make ends meet for the 3 kids you already have?

Honestly, what smug bullshit is this "caring, selfless" mother shite? It's so completely offensive.

After DD was born I had to have a hysterectomy because of complications during the birth. I almost died. Pregnancy and giving birth are not risk free and I can't imagine wanting to put another woman at risk like that because of my desperate want for a child.

AFAIK, these women have to sign up to be surrogates. They aren’t doing so under duress. I’m not saying that makes it ok, not by a long stretch, but these woman aren’t forced to go through pregnancy & birth.

Uncomfortable, given that babies can survive at that gestation but I don’t know enough about it to express any more of an opinion. How is that entirely different subject relevant though?

Eh? So because there are other kids in less than ideal situations it should be a free for all to cause newborn babies trauma?! Ok then…

And you think a mother being caring and selfless is offensive? Yeah, you’re either a wind up merchant or not very well.

How is being selfless and caring as a mother offensive?

So are you saying because the world is naturally already full of inequality and exploitation then it’s ok to add something so manufactured and self serving as surrogacy into the mix?

how peculiar

and absolutely no platform for which to extract a drop of justification for the dreadful practice under debate here

in fact your analogy should serve as an argument against surrogacy

AFAIK, these women have to sign up to be surrogates. They aren’t doing so under duress.

There's generally a very significant power imbalance. So I'm not sure how much confidence we can have in that statement. When rich women start being surrogates for poor ones, then you might have a point.

Even if they have signed up for it the person commissioning the surrogate is still prepared to put another woman at risk in order to have a baby.

Exactly. It’s like saying that prostitutes are consenting to the sex. Not the case, not that black and white.

When the power imbalance is so great the vulnerable party needs to be protected from their own decisions.

By a law that makes clear there is no room for child trafficking in this country.

Which is what surrogacy is, however prettily you dress it up.

Sure. But the pregnant woman herself is also prepared to put herself at the same risk.

Why on earth would that give anyone else the right to take her up on it?